Picture This: Where Uber-Creep Josef Fritzl Held His Daughter Captive
We’ve all been talking about the sickening story out of Austria. You kn
ow the one. The story of Josef Fritzl who held his daughter captive and raped her repeatedly for 24 years?
Here’s a snip from CTV and pic of the dungeon:
The 73-year-old man allegedly held his daughter Elisabeth, now 42, and three of their children in a soundproof chamber below an apartment block in Amstetten, a town near the Austrian Alps.
Police say he raised three of the children with his wife, who knew nothing of the secret cellar chamber.
The man told police he burned the body of the seventh child, who allegedly died of neglect shortly after birth, in an incinerator.
Elisabeth was originally reported missing in 1984 when she was 18 years old. She was located by Amstetten police on Saturday evening after they received a tip. She is now in psychiatric care with her children, two of whom are said to be in poor health.
“They are in a life-threatening condition,” the head of the clinic where they are being treated told reporters. “All of them are being given intensive medical treatment. I can give no prognosis. Only God knows that.”
Seriously? Josef’s wife didn’t have a clue. Hard to believe. In fact, impossible.
April 30th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
I agree that it is impossible that she didn’t know. How could he possibly convince his wife that their daughter ran away, but came back three different times, with three different babies for them to raise? She was close enough to do this [three times] but not close enough to stop by or even call every once in a while??
April 30th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
I agree that it is impossible that she didn’t know. How could he possibly convince his wife that their daughter ran away, but came back three different times, with three different babies for them to raise? She was close enough to do this [three times] but not close enough to stop by or even call every once in a while?? In 24 years??
April 30th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Will someone PLEASE smack Josef’s wife upside the head! Didn’t have a clue? WTF? Were the walls that sound-proof that she couldn’t hear ONE THING in 24 years?
What did he say? “Don’t worry, honey, just some very loud rats in the basement, I’ll take care of it.” Change the battery in your hearing-aide, WOMAN!
Wow, you guys are quick to get this story up. I’m impressed but it is Gregg and Matt; you set the bar high then always deliver!
Thanks for a fun show tonight and I so look forward to listening to the next one.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Oh! I sure hope those kids come through and get healthy quick! Damn, it is always kids that get stuck in the middle of some sicko’s tirade of torture. My prayers are with them as well as the daughter.
April 30th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
I saw a photo of the outside of the house. It’s unusually large, maybe four stories tall. Perhaps the wife lived on the top floor, and the hidden daughter/children were many floors below?
I’ve heard incredible tales of women in denial. Many times, denial seems to be the crucial component to a successful relationship with a sick, perverse, deranged man. Given this fact, I can imagine that she didn’t know.
April 30th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
I am about sick of giving women an out when it comes to their children. I realize that she probably didn’t WANT to know, more likely she DID know. But I am not going to give her the out. I am done. Its about time that we stop demonizing men and if we want to be equals, then we have equal culpability. I am an equal, if you mess with my kid, I will do everything possible to take you down.
April 30th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
WOW! Well said, Melissa!
April 30th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
I’m not offering her an “out”, more offering a possible explanation of facts…
For many people denial equals survival. They adjust their “knowledge” to what they can cope with, or to how they want things to be.
And we’re not talking about people in their right mind, of course.
April 30th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
I have chosen to volunteer at a school for mentally challenged children this year instead of the battered women’s shelter. My compassion has worn thin for people who choose to be victims.
Once you are a victim, twice you are a volunteer. And I repeat.
This MOM allowed her children and grandchildren to be victimized. So she didn’t do it herself, she just allowed it. How is she better?
April 30th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
I’m wondering about the additional construction that obviously took place. The bathroom plumbing is what gets me. How does your husband install a bathroom in your cellar by himself and you not notice this taking place? And if you do notice wouldn’t you want to know WHY he was putting a bathroom in the cellar? My guess is that the wife probably doesn’t have a whole of IQ points to play with.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:51 am
The houses my parents grew up in had cellars with bathrooms. The thing that gets me is that the mother never went into the cellar in what…24 years? Never? Not once? If they own the whole building, she would visit it, if they didn’t, why didn’t anyone else visit it besides Josef? WHY did no one ever go into the cellar in 24 years? This is killing me!!
May 1st, 2008 at 2:34 am
Horrible things like this story just make me want to go on a rampage…
May 1st, 2008 at 5:04 am
If the wife/mother didn’t know, she is an absolute idiot. Three times the missing daughter drops off babies and no one make any effor to search for her? Incredible and repulsive.
Here is an article with even more disturbing details.
http://tinyurl.com/6n8ssj
Melissa, you are on a roll! I ageee with your comments here and one the YFZ thread.
I know everyone is all over our judicial system, but are they going to slap this man’s hand and let him go?
Michelle, you are on a roll! Here and on the YFZ thread, you are expressing excatly how I feel.
One of the most affective and empowering systems I have ever used was the Boys’ Town model for discipline. It set very high expectations for behavior and accepts no excuses for misbehaviors. They contend you can only control your behaviors and how you react to a situtation is your choice. I am not talking about captives or children in the tyrincal control of adults but woman, men, anyone that continualy returns or justifies a reaction to an abusive situtations by acting out or falling into selfpity. I thought the Boys’ Town model allowed children to take control fo themselves and never allowed them to excuse away poor choice.
May 1st, 2008 at 5:07 am
Dang, I thought I had nixed the whole Boys Town thing. Pointless and unproofed rant. Sorry.
May 1st, 2008 at 8:08 am
Oh my…lots of attention being focused on the wife at this point without all of the facts being reported…not saying she’s by any means not guilty in this but remember it’s the old man who was holding his daughter captive and raping her repeatedly…YUCK…If you’re going to blame the mom, do you also blame the daughter for not escaping and finding help for herself and her children? Surely she had multiple chances over the years to alert someone of her situation…the point is we don’t know, because we don’t have all the facts, but what I do know is this old man is one sorry SOB.
I can’t ever envision myself as being the type of woman who allows her self to get beat up, but I hesitate to be too harsh in my judgment of other women who find themselves in that unfortunate situation..many of them have been RAISED in households where abuse was the norm so they don’t necessarily know how off kilter such behavior truly is. I am just guessing here as I myself had the advantage of a pretty decent upbringing, education, and homelife…but not everyone does…I believe Madeline Albright said “there is a special place in hell for women who do not support other women” and this my friends, I believe, which is why I try not to rush to judgment of an individual who is in a really bad situation.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:13 am
Yes, this man is a creep and a half, disgusting POS. Deserves nothing but hell.
But GJ, there is a special place in hell for people who dont protect their children and hurt their children. That includes mothers who “let it happen”
As for the daughter, she was LOCKED UP, how in the hell could we blame her? She was a prisoner for 24 years.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:24 am
GJ said: I believe Madeline Albright said “there is a special place in hell for women who do not support other women”
I grew up in a very violent household. When my mother wasn’t having her ass kick she was kicking mine – and then some… As a victim of child abuse that has left me so fucked up I can’t even begin to tell you what I deal with daily, I have no problem at ALL turning my back on women who are victimizers or who are so damn brain dead to what is going on around them that their gene pool should have been drained eons ago.
Melissa said: there is a special place in hell for people who dont protect their children and hurt their children. That includes mothers who “let it happen”
Amen!!
May 1st, 2008 at 9:29 am
Thank you, Compassrose. I see both sides. I don’t want to blame the women yet – I get sick of people blaming the victims – mostly due to the fact that I think it is punishing them twice. This man is a complete and total monster, and will never pay for his sins – it’s not possible. Any and every member of that family have been mentally damaged by him – some more than others. The mother Rosemarie, who knows how mentally ill she is after all these years. However, it does look like she could have at least at some point called the cops anonymously and said “Hey there’s something weird going on in that cellar, could someone check it out?” I mean, there were renters, he couldn’t have necessarily known it was her. On the other hand, if she did know, he probably also told her he was going to gas everyone if he was found out, and she was scared of that. We don’t have all the pieces to this puzzle yet. What we do know is hell isn’t hot enough for that piece of s***.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:35 am
I don’t know what his wife knew or didn’t know. I also don’t know if his daughter ever had an opportunity to escape in 24 years. That’s not the point; all I’m trying to say is that you cannot blame the mother for what happened until you know the facts, no more than you can blame the daughter for allowing her own children to be abused and victimized by this man. I don’t like to speculate a lot about things like this only to be proven wrong when the true facts emerge. The person that we absolutely know is guilty, based on facts in evidence, not speculation, is the father. He is the one I know without a doubt deserves to be held responsible. I will reserve my own judgment of the mother’s culpability in this when we know more about the circumstances of the case. There could be many different explanations as to why she didn’t know what was going on and then again it’s also quite possible than she knew all along. The point is that we just DON’T KNOW yet.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:40 am
“As a victim of child abuse that has left me so fucked up I can’t even begin to tell you what I deal with daily, I have no problem at ALL turning my back on women who are victimizers or who are so damn brain dead to what is going on around them that their gene pool should have been drained eons ago.”
Folks, all I am trying to say is that I try not to make assumptions about people or generalize until I know the whole story. Yes I agree there are some women who choose to be victims and there are others where the circumstances are not such vivid shades of black and white, I choose to reserve my judgment based on the individual and their situation, God forbid I should ever lose the ability to feel compassion toward another human being, especially one who is suffering.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:41 am
The wife may have not said/done anything out of her own self-preservation. I have little doubt that she is an abused women. BUT, I have a hard time believing that in 24-years she never once considered something odd about him and that cellar.
May 1st, 2008 at 10:33 am
GJ–I understand what you’re saying exactly. At the same time, I can appreciate why others have no patience. I think it’s good that some do.
I knew a man once, who told everyone–his wife included–that he was a student at a prestigious law school. Ever day he woke up, got ready, and left for school, for years. Eventually it was time to graduate….he told those he loved that it was a private affair. Someone, thinking it was odd, checked with the school, only to find out he had never attended. In fact, he had no degree whatsoever. What he did everyday, for six years, and where the money for his education went is still unknown.
Just making a simple point that what may seem obvious in hind-sight, could fly under the radar for years. And there are many reasons for this.
May 1st, 2008 at 10:46 am
I want to wait until more facts are known about the wife, et cetera, too.
The building they lived in appeared to be large, older and quite solid. They say that the entrance to the cellar was hidden so well that it was difficult to locate even if one knew where it was. That could help explain why nobody ever went there.
This man was a freak of nature, probably a major control freak. I have a feeling his wife was weak and submissive, someone who knew not to question him and his secretive activities and behaviors. Her elevator probably did not go all the way up either. It would not surprise me if she was subjected to years of abuse, mental and physical, just like the kidnapped daughter and her children. She probaby learned many years ago not to ask questions.
I’m not making excuses for her, per se. I just don’t think we have enough facts yet to judge her for what she did/did not do, say or question.
May 1st, 2008 at 10:52 am
A-that reminds me of that case a couple years ago, remember when that guy told his wife he was going medical school (I believe) and she believed him, and then when it became apparent that the truth was going to come out he killed her? IT’s funny, those of us who are used to being around liars always know to second guess just about everything, but there really are people in this world who believe what people tell them for a variety of different reasons. I’m always a little jealous of those people, I wish I still believed in the basic goodness of every human being..lol..
May 1st, 2008 at 10:55 am
“This man was a freak of nature, probably a major control freak. I have a feeling his wife was weak and submissive, someone who knew not to question him and his secretive activities and behaviors.”
This could very well be true. An abuser always knows what buttons to push to keep people submissive but the day always seems to come when one of them finds the strength to break rank and get help. It is sometimes a long time in coming, though.
May 1st, 2008 at 11:20 am
For years before my uncle passed away, he would disappear every Wednesday evening and didn’t return until the following day. For the life of me, I didn’t understand why my aunt didn’t follow him or find out what he was doing on those evenings. I always found that strange and stranger yet that she didn’t do more to investigate.
May 1st, 2008 at 11:53 am
“For years before my uncle passed away, he would disappear every Wednesday evening and didn’t return until the following day. For the life of me, I didn’t understand why my aunt didn’t follow him or find out what he was doing on those evenings. I always found that strange and stranger yet that she didn’t do more to investigate.”
Ok I find your post to be very cryptic…did you guys ever find out what he was doing?
May 1st, 2008 at 12:16 pm
One thing to keep in mind was that the part of the cellar the daughter lived in was (1) shut off from the rest of the basement by a wall, (2) could only be entered by a door that, IIUC, was only about 3 feet high by about 1.5 feet wide, made of steel, reinforced by concrete, only openable by a remote control and hidden behind a bookcase – so it wasn’t someplace you’d just stumble onto, even if you did go in the basement, and (3) once you got past the door, there was what I’ve seen described as a “maze” of about 5 other rooms before you’d get to the place where the daughter and her children were being held. So, even if Rosemarie HAD gone down into the regularly accessible part of the basement, she very well may not have seen anything to indicate there was more to the basement than what she was able to see.
In addition, it’s very clear that her husband was a very authoritative man. It’s quite likely that he chose a weak-willed woman to be his wife so that he knew she’d be docile and easy to control. By the time he locked their daughter in the cellar, she’d been with him, presumably, for at least 18 years (since that’s how old the daughter was when she was locked up,) giving him plenty of time to break down whatever will she might have had and condition her to obey him.
I look at it as being somewhat like a cult, where the leader breaks down his followers so that even if he commands them to kill themselves (or have mulitple wives, or sleep with their daughters, or donate virtually all of their money to the “cause” or any of the other things we hear about all the time, even in the US) they will do as he says.
Forty-two years ago was a very different time, and people were different. A young, Austrian woman of the early-60’s was far less likely to be seeking independence than an American woman back then would have, and certainly more than what any of us would be seeking today. It’s important to keep that in mind because like all of us, she was a product of her times and her times did a great deal to shape her character.
I find it absolutely TRAGIC that Rosemarie didn’t realize what was happening, but I don’t find it at all impossible or unreasonable to think that she didn’t. Her husband likely had a lot of control over her, and probably had convinced her that she would never be able to survive without him. It was to her advantage then to simply believe what he said and do as she was told without asking too many questions.
When Rosemarie was told that the 3 children had been left at the house, she was given letters in her daughter’s handwriting (because the father forced her to write them) to say that she was still with the cult and leaving the children for her parents to raise. She wasn’t just taking her husband’s word for it, she had something she believed was proof of the story he told.
If you’re presented with a baby and a letter telling you your daughter is leaving the child for you to care for, it’s certainly much easier – and far more likely – to think that the situation is exactly what it appears to be. Otherwise, how did her husband get both the baby and the letter? I dare say few people would jump to the thought that their husband is going to have kidnapped their daughter and lock her up in a basement, raped her, produced children with her, taken the children away from her, and forced her to write a letters explaining that she’s leaving the child with her parents to raise while she continues living with this cult. And once you believe she’s done this once, for her to do it again isn’t going to be as much of a surprise.
I understand why there’s so much anger toward the mother – the extent of this crime is so horrifying that we don’t want to believe that the wife might be unaware of what was happening. But if you have a person who wasn’t all that strong to begin with and who was raised during a time when women still expected to be rather subservient to men and who was likely browbeat through 18+ years of marriage and conditioned to obey her husband and to believe that she can’t survive without him, you end up with someone who’s likely to believe a plausible story (even if it’s a bit shaky) presented to her by her husband, and who isn’t going to want to put herself, her home or the things she needs to take care of herself in jeopardy by asking too many questions about the shaky parts.
Oh, and as for his doing the plumbing and so forth – I don’t know how homes in Austria are built, but most homes I’ve seen, the plumbing all leads down to the basement, so while he was down there building the dungeon (and his wife believes he’s working at his actual job) he wouldn’t need to do anything upstairs to hook the toilet and sink into the homes plumbing.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Sorry, I am not swayed anymore. This woman was being raped since she was at least 10 years old. She ran away 3 times. Her mother knew something was wrong and did nothing. Even a moron would know something was wrong with their kid when their are signs like that. She did nothing.
As for the basement, she was FORBIDDEN to go down there, and he would be down there every day and sometimes all night. She knew something was up in the basement, she even talked to her sister about it. She did nothing. She let it happen. You all can give her an out if you want to, maybe its just me, but I am done giving people an out who do nothing when it comes to their children.
He faked a phone call pretending to be his daughter in the nineties? How can an older man make himself sound like a young woman? How does a mother not know her own child’s voice?
Yes, he is an abusive sick creep and deserves hell, though he is only going to get 10 years in all likelihood. He is the worst of the worst.
But I still don’t give the mother an out. She didn’t do the one basic thing that a mother is ingrained to do, protect her own.
May 1st, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Melissa and Michelle, I agree. We have a cellar that is rarely used, but if either of my kids disappeared, I’d still check down there, just in case.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:01 pm
thorswitch, you wrote a very interesting post. I think it’s relevant to consider the culture, and psychology of where people come from, and what shapes them into who they are.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:08 pm
I do understand your anger, Melissa, but part of what I’m also looking at is that – as of now, at any rate, both Elisabeth and law-enforcement officials have indicated that they believe Rosemarie when she says she didn’t know anything. Perhaps more information will come out and my opinion will change, but at this point, given what I understand of abusive relationships and how someone with a strong authoritarian nature can break someone else’s will, I will give her the benefit of the doubt.
One thing of note – according to a Reuters report I found in the Sydney Morning Herald, when Rosemarie got the call in 1994, she *did* call the police about it:
Faking his daughter’s voice, Josef Fritzl called his wife and asked her to look after Elisabeth’s baby who had been left on the doorstep.
“Rosemarie Fritzl made a report about it at Amstetten police station in 1994. This report was passed on to the prosecutors’ office,” Reinhard Nosofsky, regional police department official, told Reuters.
“She could not explain the call and had not recorded it. We now know it was Fritzl.”
The prosecutors’ office, which is responsible for missing and abandoned children, tried to get in touch with Elisabeth, who is now 42.
“They had no reason to search the house or to think she was in the cellar,” Nosofsky said.
He pointed out authorities also had a letter from Elisabeth asking her parents to look after her baby and not to look for her. Police now know Fritzl forced her to write the letter.
I think an important point there is that because Rosemarie believed her daughter was “missing” because she’d joined a cult, while she had reason to be concerned when she got a phone call that may not have sounded right, she was thinking that her daughter was “missing” somewhere away from their home – a belief supported by a letter in her daughter’s own handwriting. Even with her being forbidden to enter the basement, the first line of thought – especially when you believe your daughter is elsewhere, living with a cult – is not going to be to think that her absence and the father’s insistence on the basement being off-limits – especially when he’s been known to be someone who is very protective of his privacy – are somehow related.
Still, even if she had gone in the basement, it’s highly unlikely she wouldn’t have found anything incriminating – or at least nothing to indicate that there were people being held captive (let alone her own daughter and grandchildren.) From what I understand, the most she would have found would have been that her husband wasn’t in what she believed to be the extent of the basement, where’d he’d said he’d be. The area where Elisabeth and her children lived was partitioned off and could not be accessed from the main part of the basement.
But given the information we have, there’s a lot of room for speculation and interpretation, and it’s natural that people will have differing opinions. It may turn out that you are right and the mother simply turned an inexcusably blind eye. Until more is known, though, I feel a need to respectfully disagree. I’ve been familiar with too many stories of people who have been so broken down by abusers (physical, mental or emotional) to the point that they will accept whatever they’re told – even if it doesn’t make much sense – for me to condemn her without knowing more.
May 1st, 2008 at 3:42 pm
[...] Die jüngsten Fälle von sexuellem Missbrauch in Österreich (z. B. in Amstetten, wo der 73-jährige Inzest-Pädophile Josef Fritzl seine Tochter 1000-fach vergewaltigte und 7-fach schwängerte, seinen Keller-Opfern zudem mit Vergasung / Gas-Tod drohte… es werden immer mehr erschreckende Details bekannt) sind nach Ansicht von Natascha Kampusch auch eine Spätfolge des 2. Weltkriegs und des Erziehungssystems der Nazis. – Habe ich ja schon immer gesagt (wurde wegen meiner Aufklärung über die Zusammenhänge von Links- wie Rechtsextremismus mit sexueller Gewalt auch entsprechend verleumdet)! Nun, Natascha spricht mir aus dem Herzen! Fazit und Konsequenze: Projekte junger Erwachsener (wie http://www.magnusbeckerblog.de), die sich mutig gegen jede Form von Extremismus und Sextremismus einsetzen, endlich ausreichend untersützen und nicht länger im Stich lassen! Statt die Gelder in eine das Thema verfehlende Image-Kampagne (Kanzler Gusenbauer bangt im "Land der Verliese" so kurz vor der Fußball-Europameisterschaft EURO 08 um die Reputation!) zu stecken, sollte Österreich lieber in die wenigen deutschsprachigen unabhängigen (Moral und Werte noch schützenden!) PublizistInnen (Bloggerinnen und Bloggern v. a.), die sich unter Gefahr für Leib und Leben gegen die Pädo-Mafia engagieren, investieren! Danke vorab! Gutes tun, nicht nur Quote machen -das scheinen mehrere österreichische Sender endlich erkannt zu haben (indem sie dieser Tage auch über mein Blog berichteten)- darauf kommt es an! [weitere Blog-Beiträge zum Thema: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, …] [...]
May 1st, 2008 at 3:58 pm
thorswitch – I concede that she didn’t know. I actually believe she didn’t know that her daughter was in the basement. Should she have? Thats another question altogether. My anger comes more from that and the fact that this now woman was being raped for 8 years right under her mothers nose. Now should she have known THAT too? Given that her daughters behavior likely changed dramatically, she ran away from home 3 times, on and on and on. HELL YES, she should have fricken known. And she should have gotten her the hell out of there. She failed, she didn’t DO anything. She turned as you say, an inexcusable blind eye on her own child.
Culture schmulture, I feel exactly the same way about these sick FLDS women who let their daughters get raped and let their boys to become prostitutes and drug addicts in the streets never to speak to them again.
May 1st, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Wish I knew what Kampusch’s post says.
Fritzi served 18 months for the rape of a woman in the 1960s. He has been a sexual deviant all his life.
I wonder why Fritzi let three children out of the dungeon and kept the other three captive. Why after all that abuse did he seek help for his daughter when she became ill and let Elizabeth come forward?
This is a tragic article that gives some glimpse of what life was like in the cellar.
http://tinyurl.com/6njg4c
May 1st, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Here’s a Google machine-based translation of the post about Natascha listed above as a track back. It doesn’t actually make things *much* clearer, but it may give at least a bit of an idea of what it means. It’s not written by Natascha, though, its from “Magnus” who runs the blog where it was posted:
The recent cases of sexual abuse in Austria (for example, in Amstetten, where the 73-year-incest paedophiles Josef Fritzl his daughter raped 1000-fold and 7-fold schwängerte his cellar victims also with gasification / gas-death threat … There are always more frightening details) are in the opinion of Natascha Kampusch also a late 2nd Weltkriegs und des Erziehungssystems der Nazis. World War II and the educational system of the Nazis. – Habe ich ja schon immer gesagt (wurde wegen meiner Aufklärung über die Zusammenhänge von Links- wie Rechtsextremismus mit sexueller Gewalt auch entsprechend verleumdet)! — Have I ever said yes (was because of my education about the links of links as well as right-wing extremism with sexual violence according slandered)! Nun, Natascha spricht mir aus dem Herzen! Well, I Natascha speaks from the heart! Fazit und Konsequenze: Projekte junger Erwachsener (wie http://www.magnusbeckerblog.de ), die sich mutig gegen jede Form von Extremismus und Sextremismus einsetzen, endlich ausreichend unterstützen und nicht länger im Stich lassen! Conclusion and Konsequenze: Projects for young adults (such as http://www.magnusbeckerblog.de), which is courageously against all forms of extremism and Sextremismus, finally sufficient support and no longer in the lurch! Statt die Gelder in eine das Thema verfehlende Image – Kampagne ( Kanzler Gusenbauer bangt im ” Land der Verliese ” so kurz vor der Fußball-Europameisterschaft EURO 08 um die Reputation !) zu stecken, sollte Österreich lieber in die wenigen deutschsprachigen unabhängigen (Moral und Werte noch schützenden!) PublizistInnen (Bloggerinnen und Bloggern va), die sich unter Gefahr für Leib und Leben gegen die Pädo-Mafia engagieren, investieren! Instead the money into a topic that verfehlende Image – Campaign (Chancellor Gusenbauer worried in the “land of dungeons” said shortly before the European Football Championship EURO 08 to the reputation!) To plug, Austria should prefer the few German-speaking independent (morals and values still protected!) publicist (the bloggers and bloggers va), which is under threat to life and limb against the Mafia involved Pädo invest! Danke vorab! Thank you in advance! Gutes tun, nicht nur Quote machen – das scheinen mehrere österreichische Sender endlich erkannt zu haben (indem sie dieser Tage auch über mein Blog berichteten)- darauf kommt es an! [weitere Blog-Beiträge zum Thema: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , …] Do good, not only make rate – the number of Austrian broadcaster seem finally to have recognized (by these days also reported on my blog) – that’s it! [More blog entries on the theme: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13,…]
May 1st, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Hello again, Melissa, thank you for your thoughtful response. I had misunderstood some of what you had said, so I appreciate the clarification
Should she have known what was going on in the basement, or at least have been able to figure out something was seriously wrong? In some ways, that’s a hard question to answer. Ideally, yes, she should have, but her circumstances were anything but ideal. At to whether she should have known something was going on for the years before that? I have to say, I do find it harder to understand how it is that she didn’t, but I also know how deeply someone can bury themselves in denial if they feel they’re going to literally lose everything if they admit the truth to themselves.
*IF* Rosemarie was as dependent on her husband as I think she could have been (and likely was,) she would have truly believed that she literally could not survive without him. If she truly believed that, then she would also believe that if she took Elisabeth and left him or if she turned him in to the police, not only would she be unable to survive, but neither would Elisabeth. In the mangled mind of an abuse victim, she could honestly have believed that it was better to live under the current circumstances, with Elisabeth being raped, than to risk dying because they no longer had her husband to “protect” and provide for them. It’s also possible that the level of fear she had – and the level of control her husband had over her – put her in a state of denial.
Still, I have to agree that it is much harder to understand how a mother could miss her daughter being molested in the main part of the house than it is to understand how she didn’t realize her daughter was a captive in their basement.
May 1st, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Austria is NOT a third world country, and she owned as much as he did legally.
I am not going back and forth with this. You are very articulate, and while I can be when I want to be I however am blunt most of the time.
I have already said it. I am DONE feeling sorry for women who are volunteers (not victims). I understand the victim mentality, I have been there, and I too was not a victim after the first time. I cant relate when it comes to sacrificing your children though.
I myself have stayed in an abusive relationship (or 2) far longer than I should have. But I didnt have a child, I wasnt a mother. I didnt default on the most important job that a person can be blessed with. And frankly it pisses me off that I am not blessed with this gift yet these piece of shit mothers can just spit em out and then leave them like dirt.
Look, between this and the latest on the FLDS I am just fed up and pissed off ok? I dont HAVE compassion for the people that were supposed to protect these kids, I only have enough left over now for the true victims. The children, adult and still children alike. The ones who TRULY couldnt get away.
And lets not sugar coat what he was doing, molesting seems such a weak word for the actual term, which is CHILD RAPE.
And now we find out that he is a CONVICTED rapist? She didnt know about THAT?
I find the mentality frustrating. But all in all, when the mentality spreads over to your own children I find it unforgivable
May 1st, 2008 at 7:04 pm
GJ, way up there you mentioned a man whose wife/family thought he was admitted to medical school, etc., but he wasn’t. That was Mark Hacking, the guy who murdered his wife, Lori, when she learned the truth about him.
I, too, have more trouble understanding how the wife could turn a blind eye to the fact that her daughter was being raped while they lived under the same room than I do with her possibly not knowing anything about the kidnapping, cellar, etc., particularly when she had to have known he did time for rape.
I am wondering why he decided to bring three of his children into his home to raise while leaving the others in the cellar.
May 1st, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Thanks, thorwitch, for the translation. These programs make a noble effort to convert words but do not necessarily clarify meaning. I’m not sure what to make of the combination of Nazis, racial purity, soccer, and the Mafia.
May 1st, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Oops, I mean ‘living under the same *roof*.’
I was thinking of another correlation here…BTK Strangler’s wife. She (and their children) were forbidden from ever entering the shed BTK kept locked in the backyard. She stayed away from it. She claimed not to have any idea that her husband was a serial killer. I realize this case has nothing to do with the protection of young children yet there is still the commonality of a wife whose husband committed heinous crimes while his wife remained ignorant of any signs of them.
May 1st, 2008 at 7:42 pm
If she didn’t know what he was doing down there, it is because she didn’t want to know. Babies do not mysteriously appear from your cult daughter without raising serious questions.
Why didn’t child services investigate that line of bull story better!?! And why didn’t they question the “secrecy” of the celler?
May 1st, 2008 at 7:44 pm
I’ll take a wild guess at *why* he brought three of the children upstairs EM; because it was crowded down below.
I cannot begin to imagine what it must have been like in that cellar, living day in, and day out with little children at her feet and nowhere else to go.
Perhaps she grabbed him by the balls one day and said “I can’t take this anymore…”
May 1st, 2008 at 7:48 pm
According to CNN the three brought upstairs were because they cried too much and he feared his secret would be discovered.
May 1st, 2008 at 7:53 pm
If my husband told me I couldn’t enter a room or use a part of the house, I would do everything in my power to find out why. I’m not big on secrets. Obviously, some women are bullied and intimidated into silence, but sometimes people are afraid to know the truth. It is one thing to be truly threatened into compliance and another to play ignorant.
May 1st, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Wow, so they could be heard upstairs.
May 1st, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Hell yeah they could be heard. A tenant in fact complained. Josef said that if he went into the cellar he would be evicted.
And A, I am going to forget you just said that. A little girl in captivity forced to give birth to her brothers and sisters who are also her children who you think had the depravity to give her children up to the monster who did this? More likely he told her that he can take what he wants, including her brothers/sisters/children and she could choose if they live or die.
PLEASE say you didnt mean that.
May 1st, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Melissa, I’m so very sorry to hear of your troubles with children and the abusive relationships you’ve endured. I guess I’m fortunate in that can’t imagine what either would be like. I’m truly sorry that you can. That kind of experience certainly would give someone a very different perspective on situation like this, just as my own recognition that I’d be a horrible mother and my husband’s and my decision not to have children likely colours mine.
I understand that you don’t want to keep going back and forth on this, and that’s fine – I can agree to disagree with you, and certainly respect your views. As I said in one of my earlier posts, you may well be right, and my opinion may change as I learn more of what was happening.
As for the FLDS thing, I think we’re likely in agreement there. I have to say, it has me pretty upset also – in that case, there were so many people involved, I find it very hard to imagine that NONE of the women were able to see what was really happening there. Even in a very closed off group like that, odds are that at least a few of the women would have the strength of will needed to be able to get past the blinders imposed by the cult leader and see that what was happening there was wrong. That’s one situation that I find totally baffling and completely infuriating!
I do want to comment on a couple things you said in your last post, but I wanted to let you know that I am not doing this as a kind of “I have to have the last word” thing or as a way of trying to challenge you to keep talking even though you’ve said you don’t want to. I would just like to toss my thoughts out to everyone participating in the thread in general in case any would like to continue the discussion.
Does anyone know when he was convicted for child rape or if he had to serve any kind of a prison sentence for it? If it was prior to his and Rosemarie’s marriage and he didn’t tell her about it, she may not have known. I don’t know how widely things like that would have been published about in those times, and it’s not usually the kind of thing you think to ask about. If it was after they were married, then I have NO idea how should could have missed it OR dismissed it.
Also, while she may legally have owned half of everything as his wife, if she were truly totally dependent on him – and especially if she didn’t have a job or any marketable skills – then even though she’d have some money or property to start with, she might have thought that she wouldn’t be able to keep up once what she had ran out.
I have a few other thoughts, not related to the post I was replying to, so I’ll put them in another comment – break up the big block of text a bit
May 1st, 2008 at 8:38 pm
There have been a couple other odd things I’ve been reading this evening. The first is that, apparently, the father initially got a permit for the basement expansion by saying he was building a nuclear shelter. He started building it in the late 70’s, so it was certainly a time when there would have been concerns about possible nuclear war. Building a nuclear shelter for people to live in until it was safe to come out would also have explained his installing plumbing.
The really creepy thing, though, is that he started building it several years BEFORE he kidnapped his daughter. Apparently, he’d actually planned all of this out well in advance.
There’s also speculation that someone had to have helped him with the door, and possibly with getting supplies into the dungeon when he was away for a few weeks on vacations over the years, but from what I can tell, they have no idea who that might be yet.
Worse, there were several flats in the house that he rented out to tenants over the years – he and his wife lived on the uppermost floor – and they’re now coming out and saying “you know, I noticed this, that or the other thing, but didn’t really think much of it at the time” In an AFP report published in the Sydney Morning Herald, one former tenant says he now realized that he’d been paying for the electricity for the cellar chamber while living in one of the flats:
Leitner said he could never understand that his electricity bill, for a tiny 30-square-metre flat from which he was frequently absent and where he did not even have a washing machine, was so high.
[...]
It should have amounted to only a few hundred Schilling.
“If I’d been a bit more persistent and not let it go until the mystery of the high electricity consumption had been resolved, perhaps we’d have found out about the dungeon earlier,” Leitner told Die Presse.
But it was clear even then: “There’s something attached to my electricity meter,” he said. “But I could never find out what.”
Because he refused to pay the bill, and because Leitner also had a dog, which was not allowed under his tenancy contract, Fritzl eventually threw him out of the flat.
[...]
Fritzl, Leitner claimed, also had keys to all the flats in the house. And he and the other tenants noticed that food – milk, pasta or bread – mysteriously disappeared from their kitchens.
Fritzl also strictly forbad his tenants to use the house’s big garden or to go anywhere near the cellar, Leitner said.
“Even when the weather was beautiful.” In hindsight it was clear why: the cellar could be reached via the garden. Fritzl also separated off the terrace, he added.
Leitner also noted that his dog, Sam, always growled at the father, though he never growled at anyone else, and whenever he went near the area where the hidden door to the cellar was located, he’d always bark and act strange, and Leitner couldn’t figure out why.
Another former tenant had other reasons to be suspicious – I’ll put that in another separate comment.
May 1st, 2008 at 8:46 pm
This is from an article at thisislondon.co.uk
Tenants who shared the large house with the Fritzls were warned to stay away from the basement or face being evicted.
Alfred Dubanovsky, 42, who lived there for 12 years, told how Fritzl spent his days there but banned anyone else from going near it.
He also revealed how he had heard strange noises in the night and spotted him ferrying wheelbarrows of food under cover of darkness but did not consider it unusual.
Mr Dubanovsky said: “I wish to God that I could turn back the clock. The signs were all there but it was impossible for me to recognise them.
“Who would ever believe something so terrible was going on right under my feet? It is a regret I will have to live with for the rest of my life.”
The petrol station attendant added: “I never in my wildest dreams thought he was behind anything like this. He spent every day in his cellar but I thought his behaviour was pretty normal.”
This is also the article that says he claimed he was building a nuclear shelter.
Another comment in the article kind of threw me for a loop:
“We understand that Elisabeth was his favourite child because she was so pretty. He didn’t want to lose her when she turned 18 so he spent six years building the dungeon to keep her for himself forever.
Did he and Rosemarie have other children? Has anyone read anything else about them – how old they are, were they still living in the house when Elisabeth was imprisoned, where they are now?
Ok, I think that’s all for now (Yeah!! ::laughs at self::)
May 1st, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Oops – forgot to include the link to the thisislondon.co.uk article
May 1st, 2008 at 8:48 pm
WTF? One more try and then I give up.
Thisislondon.uk article
May 1st, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Here is some information about his rape conviction.
“Detectives are going through Fritzl’s past with a fine tooth comb. And more details emerged yesterday of the rape he was jailed for in 1967.
The victim, known as Frau M, told how Fritzl broke into her home as she slept and attacked her at knifepoint.
She said: “I was newly married and my husband was working night shifts. I woke up and realised someone was taking the bedclothes off me.
“He had wrapped a dishcloth around the handle of a kitchen knife from my kitchen.
“Then he pushed it against my neck and said, ‘If you scream, I will kill you.
‘Then he raped me. Before he left he said he would kill me if I said anything.
“When I saw his picture yesterday, I knew it was him because of the eyes. I could hardly sleep.”
Fritzl served just 18 months for raping Frau M. Reports claim he was also charged with arson in 1982.
Police have claimed they can find no records of Fritzl’s previous crimes.
The Austrian authorities do not keep files on old offences.”
and this:
“Authorities are also looking into media reports that Fritzl may have had a prior rape conviction in the 1960s, but have no information because criminal records are expunged after a certain number of years under Austrian law.”
But I thought this was very interesting:
“Austria, in fact, is already a highly regulated country. Social welfare workers had visited the Fritzl home on 21 separate occasions. The three visible children from his incestuous relationship with his daughter had been adopted under all the proper procedures, according to the chief executive of the region, who said he had the documents to prove it. The underground bunker – which had in fact been specifically designed by Fritzl for the purpose of imprisoning his daughter – was constructed in full accordance with all building regulations; fire safety inspectors had approved the incinerator which had been used to dispose of one of the children.”
Link: http://tinyurl.com/6ztpjf
So, it seems there were many lost chances to perhaps know and they were either overlooked or ignored. I think that people are easily deterred because if they act on their instinct and uncover something unseemly or illegal, they will have to assume some responsibility for what they know.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Well 1967 would pretty much eliminate the wife from not knowing wouldn’t it? Thanks Rose.
Screw her and ESPECIALLY him. They are BOTH POS.
She LET IT HAPPEN. She turned her back on her child. She is culpable. And I hope that she has to live with it for the rest of her life, and for those of you who feel sorry for her I have a thumb and middle finger playing the violin. She abandoned her child, she let her be raped, she LET IT HAPPEN. She didn’t stop it and she could have.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:41 pm
I definitely want to hear more about the 1967 conviction and – especially – what Rosemarie’s reaction was to it. I just can’t imagine staying with a man who was convicted of rape.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Melissa–you want me say I didn’t mean what?
Look, this evil prick had to manage his problem. He made some efforts to keep this little arrangement of his contained, and, dare I say, happy.
Look at the photo with this post. There are colorful stickers, a rug, and even some flowers (fake, I assume). My point is that this tiny room could only hold so many people. And no matter how much a woman loves her children…a large number of them is still tough to take, especially when they’re babies. If I read the accounts correctly, she had three in a row, the third one went upstairs (followed by others).
Do you really think he wanted to take these kids upstairs and explain them to his wife? I doubt it. He was juggling.
Can I see his daughter making a few demands of him? absolutely. Do I KNOW for sure, of course not.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Yeah A, they were happy. And she wanted her sisters/brothers/children to go to HIM. While she protected the others from him. She just picked and chose which kid she wanted to be raped like her.
May 1st, 2008 at 10:05 pm
it was soundproofed from the article I just read.
May 1st, 2008 at 10:07 pm
You assume Elisabeth could maintain rational thought process. She was locked in a cellar for 24 years. I see her bargaining for survival. It would be part of the package.
Maybe she thought they’d have more opportunity upstairs.
This is not black and white stuff Melissa. It’s absolute nuts.
The thing I find impossible to imagine, is her giving birth in that cement blockade, with wall to wall bodies. Who delivered those babies?
May 2nd, 2008 at 2:18 am
Compassrose, you’d mentioned you weren’t quite sure what to make of the translated article’s references to the Nazis, among other things (I had no idea what to make of it, either *g*) I found an editorial by Dominic Lawson of the Independent (UK) that (among other things – its a very interesting article) tries to explain how people are trying to tie this back to Hitler’s legacy and the legacy of WWII Austria:
Of course this does not stop us all trying in our amateurish way to emulate the efforts of the Austrian police – quite the contrary. The popular favourite in this country (not surprisingly) is that it’s all to do with Adolf Hitler. It goes something like this. Hitler was Austrian. Many Austrians were involved in organising the Holocaust; but after the war they pretended to be victims of the Nazis, when they were really accomplices. This shows that they are a people unusually gifted at committing terrible crimes while retaining respectability. Josef Fritzl was a child during the war and was therefore somehow infected with this; meanwhile, his suburban neighbours did nothing to stop his terrible deeds, so they are all guilty too – and by extension the whole country.
Well, it’s absolutely true that far too many Austrians under Nazi rule displayed an enthusiasm for brutal anti-Semitism which left the Germans looking like amateurs; however, as a heap of innuendo piled upon non sequitur, this explanation for what went on in a basement in Amstetten takes some beating. Yet quite serious writers have proposed something along these lines with every appearance of sincerity.
They have been given some support by Natascha Kampusch, the Austrian teenager who was herself imprisoned for eight years in a basement as a “sex slave”. Ms Kampusch told the BBC’s Newsnight that what had happened in Amstetten was somehow linked with the legacy of National Socialism; but she at least acknowledged at the same time the absolute particularity of the Fritzl case.
The author notes that because this case and the case of Natascha Kampusch have come out in the last 18-months, Austrians are concerned that the world will see them as a bunch of people who regularly hold women prisoners for years or even decades. Since the end of WWII, Austria – as most of the countries Hitler conquered and then operated out of – they’ve tried to disassociate themselves from him.
It seems to me that perhaps part of why they’re trying to project something like this back onto Hitler is that since they’ve done a pretty good job at distancing themselves from Hitler and the Nazi party, associating these crimes with Hitler and Nazism perhaps makes it one step further away from being associated with Austria itself. I don’t know, that’s just speculation on my part, but it’s about the only thing I can figure out right now.
I also liked his comment on the reaction of the Austrian government to this case, in regards to how it affects Austria’s image in the eyes of the rest of the world.
The Austrian Chancellor Alfred Gusenbauer went further, angrily accusing the foreign media of “an international campaign of slander. There is no Amstetten case. There is no Austrian case. There is only an isolated case”. Chancellor Gusenbauer said that his government would now hire consultants to provide a campaign “to rectify Austria’s image”. This mixture of rage and PR is exactly how not to impress the neighbours, unfortunately. Still, we can all look forward to the advertising that might emerge: “Austria, land of lakes and edelweiss, and nothing to worry about in the basement.” Or: “The hills are not alive with the sound of incest.”
May 2nd, 2008 at 2:20 am
I’d beware the German poster – Kamputsch is the name of the first girl who was hidden by a paedophile and escaped two or three years ago. She’s been profoundly damaged by what happened.
May 2nd, 2008 at 2:35 am
I also have my doubts that Rosemarie was not aware of ANYTHING. She must have been or at least have had doubts. If my husband were to disappear to the cellar every day, I would want to know what he was doing. So he was apparently building a nuclear shelter. Did she never ask how to get in there or how it was coming along?
In reading Austrian newspapers I also learned the following:
- they had 7 children of which Elisabeth was the youngest.
- Joseph married Rosemarie when she had just turned 17 and had not finished school. He didn’t want her to complete her education or get a job.
- He delighted in putting her down in front of family and friends and expected total obedience of his wife and children.
- There is some suspicion that one of the other children (a boy) had a key to the cellar. (I have wondered who fed them when he went on holidays for weeks on end.)
Article of today’s Irish Independent with quotes from Rosemarie’s sister, who was 14 at the time they got married and hated him.
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/house-of-horror-wife—humiliated-by-despotic-husband-1364172.html
May 2nd, 2008 at 3:21 am
Interesting stuff, Frieda, thanks for the link!
May 2nd, 2008 at 5:10 am
Rosemarie was probably afraid of her bully husband, but I feel she remained ignorant for more than just fear of his abuse. If she went into the cellar, she would find some secret she really didn’t want to know. If my husband said I couldn’t enter any part of our house, I would know the reason would cause us both problems. Ignorance is bliss.
This week in Houston a man led the police on a high speed car chase and in the end he was killed by the police. His family contends he was CIA, but the CIA denies it. He always had a great deal of money, but his family never knew how he got it. I mean DUH! They didn’t know because they didn’t want to know. If they asked questions, they just might find out he was a crook and that knowledge would make them an accomplice, but if they stayed quiet, asked no question, just kept enjoying the money, then they could always claim ignorance. Rosemarie should have tried to find out why he kept going to the cellar, but she didn’t want to know because knowing would make her accountable.
Friztl is a monster. I read they had a picture of him in Thailand on vacation. So, who was taking care of his prisoners while he was out of the country? If he had died or had an accident, they would have just starved to death. I also read Elizabeth was his favorite because she was so pretty, and he had been planning and building this prison tomb for years before he attacked her.
And those very few little touches of warmth — the stickers, etc., were almost insulting. These children were denied a normal childhood filled with books, toys, sunshine, games, friendships, education, family, and fun. I read he took some sparse gifts but never celebrated birthdays, Christmas, or other events, but he did enjoy all those events with his upstairs family.
May 2nd, 2008 at 9:30 am
over 100 people lived in that house over the 24 years! they are interviewing all of them.
May 2nd, 2008 at 9:32 am
Okay, that gave me shivers, Frieda…
“In reading Austrian newspapers I also learned the following:
- they had 7 children of which Elisabeth was the youngest.
- Joseph married Rosemarie when she had just turned 17 and had not finished school. He didn’t want her to complete her education or get a job.
- He delighted in putting her down in front of family and friends and expected total obedience of his wife and children.
- There is some suspicion that one of the other children (a boy) had a key to the cellar. (I have wondered who fed them when he went on holidays for weeks on end.)”
I hope we don’t find out that Elisabeth’s brother helped his father with this as that would be even scarier than Josef doing this on his own. WOW!
May 2nd, 2008 at 9:35 am
How DID he explain the food situation? Did they have a fridge and a stove? Or was he bringing them meals?
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:12 am
Well, if they had a t.v., I guess they could have had a small stove and fridge as well.
A, for what it’s worth, I tend to agree with you that he took three of the kids upstairs because of the crowding factor and/or the fact that she simply could not care for so many young children at one time in that cramped environment and was overwhelmed. Yeesh, who wouldn’t be overwhelmed?! There is the fact that one of the twins died due to “neglect” (according to media). I’d like to know more about this neglect…did Elisabeth simply not have the energy to take care of two infants or did she (for whatever reason) intentionally neglect the child (which could have been due to mental illness, too)?
Very interesting information coming out on this case!
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:43 am
I don’t know how she took care of three children in that cramped space.
May 2nd, 2008 at 11:22 am
EM, the baby died of respitory failure within a day of birth. Fritzl wouldnt get him help. That is the neglect they are talking about.
May 2nd, 2008 at 12:08 pm
A report from Josef’s sister-in-law sheds some light on the family’s circumstances.
http://tinyurl.com/47nfxv
May 2nd, 2008 at 1:53 pm
I have been reading about this story from the beginning and if you want to get a lot more info on the situation/investigation go here:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/dailymail/home.html?in_page_id=1766
You may have to visit the archives to catch up.
It is my understanding that his wife did know about the rape charge however, she already had children by him.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=563210&in_page_id=1770
It is interesting and sad that Austria deletes past crime history. This is how he got to legally adopt the three children he brought upstairs.
Anyway, for those of you that want to know more there are two links and as you read thru the story, more links appear in the middle of the page.
May 2nd, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Penny thanks, there are thousands of links. I dont get your point though about the wife knowing about the rape. So what if she already had 4 children by him. All the more reason to get the hell out of there and get her kids out of there.
And yes, the 15 years and your record is clear is really strange, if they had known about the rape and attempted rape at the time his daughter had disappeared maybe they would really have had a reason to take a closer look at him.
May 2nd, 2008 at 3:37 pm
This is a different culture Melissa. I think it plays a huge part here. Fritl was born in 1935, the heart of the Nazi era. His marriage and family life is set against a very specific backdrop. He’s a different breed, and I’ll assume his family is also.
If you simply say “so what, they should have (just left, etc)…” then you’re missing the context.
The Nazi’s brought new meaning to the concept of brushing things under the rug, hence the 15 year clean slate thing. They don’t want to look back, at anything. Everyone gets a do-over. Corruption was rampant on every level. Most everyone was a Nazi, then suddenly they weren’t.
This man and his family are products of that. And so is his country. I hate to say it…and I’m sure they don’t like it being said either.
May 2nd, 2008 at 3:55 pm
The Times Online has a diagram of the house, including the positioning of the hidden door. From what it shows, there was the main basement where there were shelves for the tenets to store things and the property’s boiler for heating, and the door to the dungeon itself was located behind the storage shelves. You can find it here
May 2nd, 2008 at 4:16 pm
A friend of mine pointed out yet a third story in Austria of someone being held prisoner for a number of years. In this case, which took place in Linz, the mother – a lawyer – was also mentally ill, and started keeping the three girls prisoner following her divorce, when she and her husband were engaged in a custody dispute. She told the schools she was withdrawing her children and would teach them at home. By the time the girls were found in 2005, they’d been held captive for 7 years.
What makes this case particularly incomprehensible is that at least one neighbor was suspicious and had contacted the police several times to report his concerns. Nothing was done, however, until he *THREATEND TO FILE SUIT AGAINST THE CITY,* after which the police entered the home and found the girls.
The father had also tried several times to gain contact with his daughter. His requests for acess reached court several times, and the mother was called into court at least 9 times due to complaints from the father and from neighbors, but, according to the article, police “found no reason” to investigate any further.
The girls were found in 2005, but the story didn’t make the news until 2007 – but this marks at least 3 times in the last few years that there have been children found being kept captive for long periods of time (this case, Natascha and Elisabeth.) No wonder they’re worried about their image. ::rolls eyes::
May 2nd, 2008 at 4:29 pm
This whole thing is creeping me out more and more. I mean, if you think about it, she had to give birth to all the kids down in the cellar, with or without his help depending on the time; progressively, the older kids had to be there as she gave birth to the newer ones coming in and had to watch or hear.
OMG, how horrific when you think of everything they must have endured for so many years. I am sick to my stomach about this.
May 2nd, 2008 at 4:30 pm
A. I am not missing anything. The wife did, or didnt and ignored it. Her sister knew something was up. Why didnt she? I dont give a flipping frig if she was cowed by him. She had the PERFECT chance for escape when he was in jail. Every one else noticed there was something different with Elisabeth started acting strangely and angry right around the time that she started getting raped. I dont give a shit if its a different culture. Its a very well developed country as well. Being blind to the abuse of your children is not acceptable in ANY culture.
I said it once, and I will say it again. There is NO excuse for not protecting your child. And frankly after everything I have read, I dont believe that she didnt know anymore. She wasnt even interrogated. She was simply asked did you know? She said no. That was it. Oh and she was crying. Boo friggen hoo. So they believe her based on that. Chances are if she didnt know, as Rose so wisely said, it was because she didnt WANT to. I find it almost impossible that he was able to pull this off alone frankly.
Yes, the man is an abusive tyrant perverted freak, and she is a weak willed excuse for a person who sacrificed her children for the sake of not wanting to be alone. Screw her and every other woman like her.
May 2nd, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Well, I don’t think it does a whole lot to spew hatred and condemnation at dysfunctionally unfit people. Pointing out how dumb she is won’t change one moment of the past, and imo, distracts from the truly evil individual who orchestrated this entire event.
Women have been making bargains with their children throughout time, in every culture. It comes in all shapes and sizes. Some sell their kids to the highest bidder. Some give them to religious gurus or tribal leaders for a higher cause. And some send them “upstairs”.
It happens everywhere, with an endless variety of rationale. I don’t for one second believe that a mother isn’t inwardly tormented when doing so. But it’s the way it is.
Imo, the better we understand the hopelessness that others feel, the more we can do to change the core issues related to abuse and dysfunction.
May 2nd, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Great, and IMO, when we DO find women accountable for selling their children, then things will change. And again, I dont give a shit about their torment anymore. I have made this clear. DONE DONE DONE.
Women that turn a blind eye to their children are accountable for their abuse. PERIOD.
Giving women the out for being the weaker sex is insulting to good mothers everywhere. She was a VOLUNTEER in her abusive relationship.
Abuse is an excuse. Its like letting the pedophile off because HE was abused. It has to end somewhere.
I DO realize how harsh I am being. But I really dont have the patience for this shit anymore. We are never going to understand abuse. The only way to end it is for the abused to get out, and for people to start CARING for their children, start treating them like human beings.
She LET IT HAPPEN. She is guilty of that, and I hope she has torment over it.
May 2nd, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Doesn’t Elisabeth deserve the same judgment you’re using on her mother? She most likely sent her kids upstairs to live. Doesn’t that make her a POS too?
I’ll tell you why we don’t blame her, because of the photos of that cellar. We can see with our eyes what her prison looked like. Well, I’m sorry, but I believe that a lot of people (women) endure that same type of prison in a figurative sense. And maybe you don’t give a shit (by your own admission), but I know that others do.
May 2nd, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Nope. She doesnt. She wasnt able to get out. She was quite literally a prisoner. There was no getting out from the inside. And they believed that they would be gassed to death if they made noise.
And dont presume to tell me WHY I feel the way I do. And I completely disagree, I in fact have doubts about what control over which children he chose to take away from her. Your presumption from last night in fact still irritates me, that she wanted to get rid of them.
Who the hell is we?
May 2nd, 2008 at 7:20 pm
yeah, you seem a bit irritated.
“we” is a collective group of people. I used it in the context of the general public.
And how did I presume to tell you anything about yourself, other than what you say about yourself? Trust me when I say I’m walking on eggshells with you lately.
May 2nd, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Yes, I am pissed. I am not a little bit irritated, and I have my reasons. And they are valid.
The general public has a space in their heart anymore for women who allow their children to be raped?
I beg to differ. Case in point is a rather huge case happening in TX right now.
You dont HAVE to walk on eggshells with me, nor talk down to me which btw will make me MORE pissed off. You can say how you feel. But you should assume as you have been doing as well, that I will tell you how and exactly why I think you are wrong as well.
Maybe its better that we dont discuss this subject anymore?
May 2nd, 2008 at 7:46 pm
“The general public has a space in their heart anymore for women who allow their children to be raped?”
This is your way of seeing it.
I see it differently, depending on the context.
May 2nd, 2008 at 8:10 pm
I worked in the newspaper business for a while, and, forgive me my cynicism, but something about this story ain’t sitting right with me, we are missing big puzzle pieces, what we are being told just doesn’t add up. It’s obvious violent crimes have been committed, but something just isn’t kosher about what we are being told in the news right now. The truth will out, it’s just going to take some time. The more I think and the more I read, the more I know the mother had to know. Twenty-four years, seven children, right under her feet? No way. as for the rape of Elizabeth as a child – Neighbors knew, renters knew, come on. A mother knows, should know, is damned if she doesn’t know. God gave women the maternal instinct in order to protect the child – when she fails to, she is going against her own nature, her own being. God help those poor people. Someone in an earlier post said every basement in Austria should be checked, and I say, why not?
May 2nd, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Something’s not right, somebody’s lying, more people knew than Fritzl.
Just wait and see.
May 2nd, 2008 at 8:23 pm
I think that you both agree to disagree…
You both have valid points that you bring out into the open that give us some food for thought.
Right now, it is all speculation and once the investigation is over, hoepfully we get answers to all the questions everyone is bringing up here and all over the world about how this could have gone on for 24 years and NO ONE knew or heard anything.
May 2nd, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Yes Rayvn, I do agree to disagree with anyone who doesnt agree with me. And I think I have admitted above that I am irrationally pissed off right now given this wasnt done to me. I cant pinpoint why this case got me, though I think it was the realization that the women in FLDS were purposely turning a blind eye and just made me think ENOUGH already.
Irrational or not, I am pissed.
I know the cases are different, but they are the same in SO many ways.
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Melissa is way to agressive.moo.
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Wise words Rayvyn, thanks.
Melissa, I respect your opinion. You always broaden my perspective…even when we don’t agree.
Kirsti–go away. This isn’t about taking an opportunity to pick a fight.
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:24 pm
I was gonna say. A and I agree on a lot of things. Kirsti being one of them.
And right back atchya A.
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:32 pm
I think this case hit everyone hard and really made us wonder why it even happen, for as long as it did and the most shocking was that no one knew or if they did, nothing was done to help. Very scary stuff.
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:44 pm
A said: ” I don’t for one second believe that a mother isn’t inwardly tormented when doing so.”
I don’t believe that. Maybe some are after the fact, when their kid dies at the hands of the boyfriend. But overall, I don’t think so.
I agree with Melissa. Women who turn a blind eye are weak and I have neither sympathy nor empathy for them. I know what it’s like to be beat down and I know what it’s like to have enough sense and courage to stand up and say enough. Anyone who doesn’t have enough courage, let alone sense, to save their children is a POS as far as I’m concerned and shouldn’t even bother to breed.
I don’t even care about the culture differences. Anyone with a moral compass knows in their soul that raping children is wrong, let alone your own children.
Mark my words, the only excuse this woman will end up having is that she stayed because she couldn’t support herself or her children on her own. I’d bet on it! And in the end we will probably find that the choice to stick her head in the sand had more to do with her own self-preservation than it had to do with a maternal instinct to save her children.
I seriously doubt that Elisabeth was the only one of his children he went after. I’d bet the whole family knew he was a pedophile. And anyone want to guess what he was doing on his Thailand vacation and how old the child was he was doing it with?
Perhaps the reward for feeding and keeping quiet about Elisabeth was that one of the other children wasn’t victimized that particular day.
This man is a monster and clearly capable of the most despicable evil. But there is no way I believe that the only person who knew that she was in the cellar in the last 24-years was her father. It defies logic.
May 3rd, 2008 at 12:06 am
Sorry Cindy, and thanks. That is my point, and I think Michelles.
May 3rd, 2008 at 1:18 am
In an article in the Independent UK, the doctors taking care if Kerstin have apparently said that she “…is suffering from a form of epilepsy that is linked to incest is on a respirator and has been put into a clinically induced coma. Doctors say her condition has stabilised.” I pray that they’ll be able to find a way for her to at least control the epilepsy. I’d been hoping that none of the children would be suffering from problems due to inbreeding – their cirucmstances are so tragic to begin with, the last thing they need is another “gift” from ther “father.”
I can’t believe that he may not get anymore than 15 years for this! I wonder if maybe they can arrange for that 15 years to be spent in solitary confinement in a windowless cell, where someone brings him food on occasion and otherwise just let him sit there and rot.
Oh, and Melissa, for what it’s worth, I don’t think your anger is at all irrational. If a situation like this doesn’t provoke anger, then what on Earth would?
May 3rd, 2008 at 2:09 am
He’s being looked at for the murder of of a teen on a lakeside property he owns too. It’s got an awful lot of people going here, in a mailer I belong to and both sides of the the pond – this is going to get worse, I am sure.
May 3rd, 2008 at 2:17 am
This is certainly interesting. One of the lodgers – Sepp Leitner – now claims that he knew that Elisabeth was being abused in the years before she was imprisoned in 1984. This is the same tenant who said that his electric bill was unusually high and that he was evicted when he stopped paying the bill and because he had a dog (even though pets weren’t allowed.)
Sadly, he was apparently more willing to risk his “landlord’s ‘revenge’” over a big electric bill than he was over the idea of notifying the police of Elisabeth’s early abuse which led her to run away.
Also, I wonder why the father let him have a dog in his apartment for at least some period of time when pets were forbidden and he wasn’t well known for tolerating people going against his word? That just seems odd to me.
A lodger who once lived in Josef Fritzl’s House of Horrors claimed yesterday that he had known that the Austrian electrician was sexually abusing his daughter Elisabeth.
Sepp Leitner, who lived in Mr Fritzl’s house for four years in the early 1980s, said in a television interview that a female neighbour had told him that her friend Elisabeth had been raped by her father.
According to Mr Leitner, the neighbour even helped Elisabeth to run away to Vienna but the teenager was tracked down by police and brought back to Amstetten at her father’s behest. “Elisabeth was repeatedly raped by her father. She could not take it to live at home anymore and tried to escape,” Mr Leitner told the Austrian private television channel ATV.
“She had taken sleeping pills and went to Vienna. But the police found her and they, or her father, brought her back home.” Mr Leitner did not explain why he and the unnamed neighbour failed to alert the police about Elisabeth’s plight, though he hinted darkly at their fear of the landlord’s “revenge”. Mr Leitner said that he was still tormented by nightmares.
I dunno, something about Leitner is striking me as rather hinky. There have been questions raised about the possiblity of an accomplice of some sort since the sliding concrete door leading to the dungeon from the normal part of the basement weight over 600 lbs and couldn’t have been hinged by just one person. I’ll be interested to see what more we hear of from this guy.
May 3rd, 2008 at 4:13 am
God forbid we find she’s been used as a teenage prostitute. That’s what happened to Natasha Kampusch, and she was involved by her abductor into S and M circles, plus hidden in plain sight.
Today marks the year anniversary of Madeleine MacCann’s disappearance. Maybe she isn’t dead, given these two cases, but if she is alive,may God help her, the poor little soul.
May 3rd, 2008 at 4:14 am
This paragraph of Thorswitch’s strikes me as a profound truth: “I dare say few people would jump to the thought that their husband is going to have kidnapped their daughter and lock her up in a basement, raped her, produced children with her, taken the children away from her, and forced her to write a letters explaining that she’s leaving the child with her parents to raise while she continues living with this cult. And once you believe she’s done this once, for her to do it again isn’t going to be as much of a surprise.”
Even more so in a situation where the mother is aware of abuse of the child. She may even have heaved a sigh of relief that her daughter succeeded in getting away finally. To the mother this might also explain why the daughter might have dropped the children off without visiting with her parents……
It is so much easier to believe the things you want to be true.
May 3rd, 2008 at 4:14 am
This paragraph of Thorswitch’s strikes me as a profound truth: “I dare say few people would jump to the thought that their husband is going to have kidnapped their daughter and lock her up in a basement, raped her, produced children with her, taken the children away from her, and forced her to write a letters explaining that she’s leaving the child with her parents to raise while she continues living with this cult. And once you believe she’s done this once, for her to do it again isn’t going to be as much of a surprise.”
Even more so in a situation where the mother is aware of abuse of the child. She may even have heaved a sigh of relief that her daughter succeeded in getting away finally. To the mother this might also explain why the daughter would have dropped the children off without visiting with her parents……
It is so much easier to believe the things you want to be true.
May 3rd, 2008 at 4:18 am
P.S. The above would of course not explain how the mother persuaded herself the daughter thought her children would be safe at her parents’.
May 3rd, 2008 at 6:07 am
“”"Police say he raised three of the children with his wife, who knew nothing of the secret cellar chamber.”"”
ok, He raised three of the children with his wife!!! where did she think these children came from? Even if she was a total idiot, surely she knew she hadnt given birth to them???
May 3rd, 2008 at 6:44 am
Michelle, Rosemarie thought that the kids had been left on their doorstep by their daughter, because that’s what her husband told her. He even had a handwritten letter from Elisabeth saying that the cult didn’t allow children, and asking her parents to raise her. The letter was not a forgery – the father had forced her to write it. He did this again on two other occasions.
There were a number of things that helped him make the story convincing. First, he went through the legal process required to adopt the children. The social services office didn’t find anything hinky, which would have helped reassure the wife. Social services also came to their home more than 20 times and never found anything to investigate.
As for her not wondering about the cellar, her husband had started building it about 5 years *BEFORE* he imprisoned Elisabeth – claiming it was a fallout shelter that would let them survive in the case of a nuclear attack (and in the late 70’s-early 80’s, that was a genuine concern – as were satanic cults, for that matter.) He even got all the necessary legal permits, including for plumbing and electricity.
So, yeah, she knew she didn’t give birth to them, but given all of the above, I can understand why she might not have felt the need to ask too many questions. She knew why the basement was there, she knew – in a general sense – where her daughter was, she knew why her daughter couldn’t keep her kids and the government told her that all was on the up-and-up with the adoption and approved it.
May 3rd, 2008 at 7:27 am
I do volunteer work with children that have been taken into CPS care. The mothers I have dealt with have all had difficult lives with limited choices and have normally suffered abuse themselves. Once they enter the system not only are there expectations for them to make changes, but there are endless resources and people lined up to help. I was shocked at how much is available. I know my organization offers emotional support, physical items, and assistance for financial help. But even with all that, woman will continue to do nothing. Compassion can become an enabler to do nothing. They will not take control of their lives and continue to see themselves as always the victim. What looks like cruel indifference just might be the only method to get a woman to change her life, save her parental rights, and offer some hope for an independent life.
If Rosemarie’s sister-in-law knew Fritl was such a bully and an abuser, I wonder if they ever offered to let her move in with them? I doubt that Fritl cared if she left except for raising the “found” children.
I wonder if this man had begun abusing any of his upstairs daughters or the daughter still in the dungeon. He seems to like girls of a certain age. And Michelle Gray is absolutely right. Fritl was not in Thailand admiring the landscape. He became the mosnter he was because everyone was intimidated by his bully methods. Evil lies in our fearful and passive inaction — we see this time after time in true crime.
May 3rd, 2008 at 7:27 am
I was thinking the same thing about the vacations in Thailand Michelle.
May 3rd, 2008 at 7:59 am
second man in cellar http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7377344.stm
here is also a good interview with natasch kampusch. she’s donated €25,000 to elizabeth and her family.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7376667.stm
May 3rd, 2008 at 8:57 am
Let’s not loose sight of something very important here. People keep reiterating she was abused for 24 years.
Elisabeth was abused for 42 years.
She was sexually abused for at least 30 years. She was as more likely mentally and physically abused in other ways her entire life as were all the other children in this man’s life. She is still physically very ill. She will never recover from this man’s abuse. Her children will never fully recover from this man’s abuse.
We know all of these people in the building knew something was wrong – surely the man left the house at some point. We know he was going to the grocery store. And by now the world knows he was on sex holiday in Thailand. Why didn’t she walk her butt down to the cellar and see what was going on? In a month she could have gotten another electrician to disable the “security alarms” that kept her out of the cellar!
I don’t care how little education you have anyone with a brain is curious and knows how to snoop around and find out things. I have absolutely no compassion for Rosemarie.
It is a pity Josef is so old; maybe we can keep him alive longer so that he can be punished more for his grievous crimes.
I also agree about checking the cellars in Austria, both this one and the one Ms. Kampusch was held in were built at least in part with state funds. At the very least check the ones the state funds paid for as a start.
May 3rd, 2008 at 10:47 am
I just read a report that Kerstin’s doctors are saying she has an auto-immune disorder (I don’t know if this is in addition to the epileptic diagnosis that was reported yesterday or if they’ve determine that this is the problem instead of the epileptic disorder.)
Worse, they say she’s not expected to live.
I suppose some might see it as a blessing for her if she weren’t to survive, saving her from having to undergo the trauma of trying to adapt to the world. The doctors have said that because she’s the eldest, she would have the hardest time recovering, if recovery is even possible. Yet at the same time, it’s sad to think she might not be able to enjoy – as much as she can – the freedom her illness helped provide to her family. I can only pray that whatever happens, it’s what’s best for her.
May 3rd, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Another article on this horror.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/03/austria.internationalcrime
I tried to post earlier in response to a question from Melissa, but it didn’t go through. Yes, they did have a cooker/stove. Apparently Joseph made her cook a meal for him after he had raped her. So she must have had a 1/2 ring cooker.
And yes, he went to Thailand for what we think he did there. A “Friend” who went with him (taking his girlfriend) said that Joseph would “disappear” for most of the night and then come back and relax with massages on the beach during the day. I can’t find the link again, but I read in a newspaper article that his friend saw him buy women’s clothing and when he said something about it not fitting Rosemarie, Joseph said he had “a bit on the side” and the clothes were for her.
With everything coming out now, I just can’t believe that nobody knew there was something going on.
May 3rd, 2008 at 12:58 pm
I read in wikipedia that Elizabeth did escape from the dungeon on Christmas Eve,1994, but her father caught her and put her back. You know she talked to somebody, if she found anybody at all before he caught her. There’s something up with that.
Also, does Austria not have laws against convicted sex predators adopting children? WTH?
May 3rd, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Kerstin deserves to know there is more to life than a dank cramped cellar. If she dies, her death is so much more tragic because she never got to know any life besides that of a prisoner. No matter how difficult the future may be for the boys and Elizabeth, they have an opportunity to be loved and enjoy some of the joys of life. The other children have also had their world turned upside down. How horrible to discover you are the product of an incestuous relationship.
And if my husband built a bomb cellar, I would expect to see it before a bomb dropped. Again, people fail to ask questions because they don’t want to know the truth. And no way would my daughter drop out of sight, drop off three babies for me to raise, and I would ask no questions or make any real effort to find her.
May 3rd, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Cindy, they may have laws against sex offenders adopting, but they also have laws that expunge a criminal’s records after about 10 or 15 years, so by the time he started adopting his children/grandchildren, his rape conviction had already been erased.
And no, I cannot even begin to understand why they would have a law doing that. I know back then they didn’t as much understanding of the incurability of sex offenders as we do now, but still. I really don’t get that one.
May 3rd, 2008 at 2:37 pm
This article reveals even more details.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3867629.ece
May 3rd, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Austrian police colonel Franz Polzer speaking about the conditions in the cellar… [two steel doors] “They are open now, but we are trying to get another way out of this room because the working conditions in this prison are so exceptional,” Mr Polzer said.
“Investigators wearing special clothes and masks … can work there only one hour and during this hour they try, one team after the other, to gather everything available in this living space and search particularly for DNA traces to establish if the alleged criminal really committed this on his own.
Full Article by The Press Association posted 05/03/08
May 3rd, 2008 at 2:42 pm
http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5jN9e9StS4ib9SVAMIbgefiYDkZ9w
May 3rd, 2008 at 3:29 pm
This article has a diagram of the cellar.
http://tinyurl.com/47jlp4
Scroll down past Fritzl on holiday.
May 3rd, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Yeesh, what is it with Europeans and old men in speedoes.
May 3rd, 2008 at 6:07 pm
It will indeed be even more of a tragedy if Kirsten does not live.
May 3rd, 2008 at 6:29 pm
From all I am hearing, she doesnt have much chance. Her system has pretty much shut down.
May 3rd, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Yes, I heard that, too. So sad that her life comes down to being in a hospital, fighting for her life, after finally being able to see the world.
May 3rd, 2008 at 6:50 pm
These are all different renderings of the cellar. Does anyone have information from a reliable source?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23481007-details/Incest+dad+insists+he+acted+alone+as+DNA+proves+he+fathered+daughter’s+seven+children/article.do
http://gizmodo.com/385313/how-gadgets-helped-a-crazy-austrian-man-keep-his-daughter-as-a-sex-slave-for-24-years
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/30/23944/7890/296/506180
http://www.stuff.co.nz/northland/4500468a11298.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2008/apr/28/austria.internationalcrime2
May 3rd, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Compasserose has a good link–look up a few posts Nancibelle.
And I agree that this pervert is disgusting in his speedo.
May 3rd, 2008 at 9:51 pm
I know you don’t like me A. Over and done with. Nobody cares.
I have read a lot on this case. Until now nobody blames the mother of Elisabeth. About 100 people rented in the house through those 24 years. Nobody detected nothing.
What I have heard, though, is that Elisabeth’s brother had a key to the basement appartment.
May 4th, 2008 at 4:08 am
Wrong, Kirsti, I thing most of us care! Breaking news is that Kerstin is dying and when she does, that monster will be charged with murder.
May 4th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Kirsti, I don’t believe you are paying attention. Maybe you are so upset you are not seeing the real picture.
You stated that nobody blames the mother. – untrue
The investigators are saying Elisabeth reported to them that her mother didn’t know. The public outcry is – How could Rosemarie not know? And if she didn’t know, why didn’t she investigate grossly abnormal behavior of her husband? Ignorance is not fault but when you have a fiduciary duty to protect your children which she did, you have a responsibility; which makes her guilty by indifference and failing to act. I have no doubt she lived her own personal hell with this man. However that does not mean she’s completely innocent.
As for the brother – One tenant said he thought he saw the brother go in there. I have read every article that has been released also. I don’t doubt that it is possible and very plausible but it has not been substantiated as of yet.
May 4th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Nancibelle, perfectly said.
May 4th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Yet another article says a tenant saw Rosemarie carting food in there as well. The same guy who said that the whole neighborhood knew that Susanne was being raped.
May 4th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Ok, this blows me away… On AOL…
“Fritzl has not been formally charged. He faces up to 15 years in prison if he is ultimately convicted on rape charges, the most grave of his alleged offenses, unless prosecutors can charge him with “murder through failure to act” in connection with the death of the infant. That is punishable by up to 20 years in prison.”
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/chilling-details-emerge-in-incest-case/20080504103109990001?icid=100214839×1201313865x1200054975
May 4th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Regarding the guy renting above the cellar, it can be difficult to realize that his electrical wiring was connected to the cellar downstairs. His heating was apparently electrical and theirs which meant his bill would have been high.The other appliances would not use so much.But he must have plenty money as he did not try to work out how to economize with the electric. If he did he might have been able to “suss” out everything. Also the knocking he use to hear , sounds in a block can be deceptive but if they have unusual noises ie time of day and type of sounds they could have led him to explore further. But the problem was of course that the tenants did not have long leases so that they would forget everything after leaving.
May 4th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
There’s 2 guys who’ve said that people knew the father had been raping Elisabeth before she was imprisoned. They’ve both mentioned that Elisabeth had told them she was going to run away permanently to get away from her father, and when she disappeared, they thought she had succeeded. The two who’ve been quoted the most are Leitner and Dubanovsky.
I’ve seen where Leitner has said that he saw the father taking food in with a wheelbarrow, but nothing yet from either him or Dubanovsky saying they saw Rosemarie taking food in. Do you remember which site that was on or have the link? I’ve been trying to read all the articles I can find because I’ve been writing about this some at my blog, but there are just SO many of them, and I don’t want to miss something that crucial!
Thanks!!
May 4th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Michael, the guy renting the apartment above the cellar lived there for 4 years, and had been concerned enough about the electric bills that he had an electrician friend come out to try and figure out what the problem was. They turned off every electrical-using item in his apartment and discovered the meter was *still* spinning, which told him that something else was hooked up to his meter, he just didn’t know what. He also noted that he didn’t have a lot of common electrical items like a washing machine.
May 4th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
I can’t believe that the father is planning to plead insanity. As I mentioned earlier, he’s not insane. Sociopathic, sure, I’d buy that in a heartbeat, but that doesn’t mean he “couldn’t help himself” or that he didn’t know right from wrong.
I also read that if Kerstin doesn’t survive, with the charges for the kidnapping and incest, plus the possible murder-by-neglect charges for both the infant boy and Kerstin, they may actually be able to lock him up for the rest of his life, rather than just 15 years. One can only hope.
Nancibelle – I think the reason there are several different versions of the layout is that they haven’t really been able to get far enough in there to have fully mapped it yet. They’ve talked about having trouble because of how bad the air down there is, so it may be that the different drawings are essentially interpretations based on the different discriptions people have given of how it’s laid out in there.
May 4th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
I come back to my origonal concern ie was there a way in which Elizabeth could have told the world outside what was going on underneath the block of flats. For instance she had been to school until 18 and would have known all about the origon of morse code from 9 or 10 years. But she did not seem to have enough wit about her to experiment with this. (I always think Austrians are rocket scientists).Anyway if she had thought about it, tapping on pipes ie copper plumbing, the sounds would have travelled everywhere and she could have devised a morse language of her own or simply SOS (save our souls)
Now you seem to dwell on the food that was seen going in to the flat. Well you know housebound people have food brought in to them and you may never see them and also there are people who have psycological problems and they never go outside and,So I’m not sure would this have aroused suspicion for these latter reasons.
But I feel bad about Kerstin as the reports just say she is having multiple organ failure. Well we know she has kidney failure but what about liver and heart. Her case may not be completely hopeless.
Also one may think that Elizabeth did not have all her wits about her. But she had the intelligence to pursuade that maniac to let Kerstin to be treated and then having the intelligence to secrete a message on her and also not afraid of what might happen if that maniac found it.
May 4th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
thorswitch you were looking for the article where Alfred Dubanovsky talks about seeing Rosemarie helping with the food
Title of Article: Fritzl lodger set to tell police: I saw the cellar monster’s wife help take food to sex slave dungeon
Link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=563326&in_page_id=1770
Quote: “The amount was far too much for five people, and his wife must have noticed that. As far as I am concerned she used to help stash the foodstuffs in the cellar.
… If you read it .. it does not say he said “I saw her do it” it says as far as I’m concerned” inferring maybe he saw her maybe he didn’t, he can’t remember..
This link is the article about the plumber which he says he was introduced to:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7377344.stm
May 4th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Who the hell knows Morse code? Sorry, but I am generally in her age group and I certainly dont know it.
And as for food being brought in for the psychological bound, you are talking nonsense Michael. Nobody said that he said he had a housebound tenent, which is WHY people wondered why he was bringing food into the cellar by the wheelbarrow. And it DID arouse suspicions.
Elisabeth, before she started having children was quite literally bound up. She was in one room, there was nothing, she was kept in complete dark until he came to rape her and feed her. Since her oldest is 19 and she has been locked up for 24 years thats a LONG time.
Lets just take how they train elephants. For years they are chained, they cant get out of their restraints. (literally chained, like Elisabeth). After a few years, all it takes is a small rope to keep them confined, because they are broken. Even though they have the strength to go.
And the message wasnt a secret. He knew about it.
May 4th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Last thing I would ever do is criticize the behaviors of a victim especially one at the mercy of a madman — be they a child, an adult woman or man. It really isn’t like the movies where they use a spoon to tunnel their way to freedom. Those people held in the cellar need support and not one minute of second guessing why they didn’t escape.
May 4th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Michael: I never learne morse in school. So how do you do SOS on a pipe?
May 4th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
The sister is changing her story.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gdI0YfeJ78M9DHXK6YF71fjFnJCwD90F1LEO0
What a loon this one seems to be. She is posing with her dog? Saying she was afraid of the monster when only 2 days ago she said that she used to take no crap from him? She caused him to get a hair transpant because she back talked him?
And not for nothing, but who in their late 60’s talks about their sex lives to the extent that EVERYONE knew that they werent having sex anymore?
I mean, I know I talk about mine with my friends, but I dont think they repeat it. Let alone to the press.
May 4th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Only one man is guilty here. Just see no need to blame anybody else.
May 4th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Good grief, she is talking to the press but she hasn’t spoken with her sister since before the arrest. What does she really know anyway? She is as much gossip as anyone else. I would call this her 15 minutes. Why wouldn’t she give her name? She is identified as the Rosemarie’s sister and is full face on camera with the goofy dog — like the press won’t be able to get her last name.
May 4th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Compassrose: What exactly do you have agianst Christine R.? What is wrong with her dog. You don’t like dogs? Or is it just her dog that offends you?
May 4th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Kirsti, Nancibelle addressed you directly. And did so eloquently. If you dont have a reason that mothers should not be responsible for their children then state WHY.
And yeah Rose, thats pretty damn gross isnt it? I had to laugh at the posed picture with the dog. Even though its far from funny. It made me want to slap her.
May 4th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Good lord. Why couldnt you stick to your promise to go away Kirsti?
May 4th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Nancibelle: I know you think that Rosemary knew. I don’t.
Maybe you think she should have known. Still,- she didn’t.
Melissa: Mothers are resposible for their children. Fathers are too. Rosemary took care of Elisabet’s children. According to records she did her best at it. She belived Elisabeth was in a cult, and did the best she could for her children.
May 4th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Melissa: Although I like some of your comments, I don’t have a lot of respect for you, and i don’t follow your orders.
May 4th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
You don’t have respect for anyone. Which is why you are not respected by anyone FWIW. Your ridiculous comment to Rose about the dog means you are a troll or incredibly stupid.
Now lets say you want to have a discussion. What do you say about a woman who turns a blind eye on her child being raped? Lets forget about the dungeon, because that could have all been avoided. How did her classmates know, the neighbors know and she didn’t? Would you say she failed at the MOST important job she had or not? We are talking about BEFORE Elisabeth was abducted. Lets let alone the rumors that she actually DID know and has now checked herself into a hospital. What about before? He was in jail for rape for almost 2 years. She could have taken everything from him and gotten her children in a safe place but she didnt.
What is your excuse for her now?
May 4th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Kirsti, I have nothing against the dog. Considering the gravity of this subject posing with her dog and claiming anonymity while appearing full face to the camera is in my opinion — and my opinion is all it is — very poor judgement. Chrisitne R has added nothing to the situation. She has shed no light except to say her sister has become fat, and they haven’t had sex in years. I think she would have better served her family to remain silent. If you go before the camera, you open yourself to not only sympathy, or praise, but also criticism.
Just out of curiosity, how many cults do they have in Austria?
May 4th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
I have never heard that rosmary knew that elisabeth was raped by her father. If she did, i think it will come to light.
If what you are saying is that fathers have had way to much power in homes because of submissive wifes, I completely agree with you.
May 4th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Natasha Kampush was critiziced for saying elisabeth and her family should have stayed little bit longer in the cellar. Could tha be because she knew something about the attack-dogs outside? Blaming her for not escaping before? Blaming her mother?
May 4th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
OK, lets take this slowly. Elisabeth’s friends knew, the neighbors knew. And somehow the mother didn’t know?
The REASON she didn’t know (which I don’t buy at ALL) is because she didn’t want to know. And I am NOT alone in this. Worldwide people are asking the same question.
She failed as a mother, her most important job in the world. She let it happen and she had outs, plenty of them. He vacationed away from her (an out), he was in jail for rape (an out), he was in jail for arson (an out).
She FAILED miserably as a mother.
And you say you have read about this case? Bullshit. Anyone with half a brain would have known to get their kids the hell out of the situation whether it was to get HIM out of the house (which she would have been able to do). Or just getting out with all that she had, and that was a lot. These are wealthy people.
May 4th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
No, Natasha said that because it was all they knew. And now they are in culture shock. Which is why they built them a shelter to retreat to.
You said you read about this. I am finding that very hard to believe given your responses.
May 4th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Melissa, Melissa, I’ve read a lot about this case. Maybe Rosmary is a miserable mother, a miserable person, dumb as hell. Maybe she is abused, or maybe she is happy in her misery. For some people it feels safe to have somebody ordering you around.
Question is: Is she a victim? Well, I’ve heard abuut a female victim who shot her minister-husband in the back because he made her wear white high-heels. 2-300 days in jail for thatis all she got.
That should set a precedence.
May 4th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
BTW Melissa: There is no person in the western world that dosen’t read everything about this case. You don’t need to feel like an intellectual or anything because you follow the case.
May 4th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Precedence for whom? Most logical people dont buy Mary Winkler’s lame defense. She happened to get a jury that is retarded. Most people dont think that giving your husband head, and wearing high heals is abuse. She got off. So be it, it doenst mean that the country as a whole isnt laughing at that backassward county that let her off.
And I reiterate, you havent read shit. If you did then you wouldnt be coming up with these lame excuses.
May 4th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Melissa, why don’t you think I have read a shit. Everybody reads everthing about this case. All papers write about it. Go to BBC, you’ll get all the news in a second.
You think I’m reading books on philosopy instead of tabloids? Well, to be honest with you, I do both.
May 4th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Go away. You actually did promise.
I have nothing more to say to you.
May 4th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Melissa: Is that an argument?
May 5th, 2008 at 1:56 am
In an earlier comment, it was pointed out that elephants are trained by chaining them up until their will is broken, after which they can be kept in place with only a rope, even though they have the strength to easily break the rope. While Rosemarie may not have been subject to *physical* restraints, isn’t it possible that the psychological restraints she’d been subjected to by her husband’s abuse might not have had the same effect – leaving her so broken that even when he was gone from the home, she didn’t have the will to try and escape, even if she knew he’d abused their daughter before she disappeared? It’s not unheard of.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:19 am
Melissa, I will read anything you post with attention. Kirsti, I echo Melissa remark. Go away until you’ve grown up. Or developed a brain.
May 5th, 2008 at 6:45 am
Thorswitch, I DO understand why women stay. I do not however understand why they stay if they have children who are also being abused. 2 completely and totally different situations.
I dont know the elephant trainers would have the guts to mess with a baby elephant in front of its mother. Not sure they would want to test that theory either. It simply goes against nature.
May 5th, 2008 at 7:15 am
If I didn’t already know that Kristi was in the Burien,WA vicinity, I would swear that she was the Pati troll. Kristi, do you drink in White Center before you pop onto Crime Rant? You kinda seem like a drinker, to me. It’s no wonder, really. White Center is the most dysfunctional community I’ve ever encountered. It would be fitting that you lived in the neighborhood.
May 5th, 2008 at 7:48 am
Wow. Okay, it’s a new day, folks. I think the mother wasn’t very smart to begin with, didn’t graduate high school, was only 17 when she married the freak, and, after several decades of only God knows what kind of abuse, not to mention seven children, had very few marbles left anyway, and SHUT DOWN as a human being. I’m not saying it’s right; but it’s what happened, in my opinion. She didn’t know because she didn’t want to know, and after what she had been through with him, it was easier to live in a fantasy world. It’s what she did to survive. Again, I’m not saying it’s right. But it’s what happened. With ten kids to raise, she had many, many things to keep her too busy to think too much. From what I understand, she is suffering greatly now.
Enough about her. This is what I’m struggling with right now. They’re saying there is no oxygen in that dungeon and the investigators can only work down there about an hour at a time. I understand Fritzl not giving a damn about his prisoners; but the sister said he spent hours down there, even spent the night. Why would he chose to be oxygen deprived during all those times?
This story kills me. It’s like Chinatown times seven children times 24 years. It would have been more merciful for these folks to have perished. Have there every been any accounts of any other people who spent their entire lives underground, from birth? Most abusers would have put their victims out of their misery. I guess scientists are very interested in studying these poor kids.
May 5th, 2008 at 7:52 am
I dont get that either Cindy. I know he had oxygen pumped in. They wouldnt be alive if they were oxygen deprived.
Maybe the pump is off?
May 5th, 2008 at 7:52 am
I dont get that either Cindy. I know he had oxygen pumped in. They wouldnt be alive if they were oxygen deprived.
Maybe the pump is off?
May 5th, 2008 at 7:53 am
Thorswitch said:
“…isn’t it possible that the psychological restraints she’d been subjected to by her husband’s abuse might not have had the same effect – leaving her so broken that …she didn’t have the will to try and escape…It’s not unheard of.”
Yes. Happens all the time, unfortunately. She had been with him since age 17, he had many years to go to work on her mind, apparently he enjoyed publicly humiliating her, imagine how he treated her in private…it just turns my stomach. I’ve read a lot of books about women in her situation and it’s so very sad, especially when children are involved. I don’t think any of them stood a chance against this guy.
May 5th, 2008 at 8:24 am
You know who stands a chance against him – those criminals he’s imprisoned with. This time he’s the weak one. I hope someone makes him their girlfriend real soon, and for 24 years, in fact. If there was any justice they’d let him into the general population and just let the people tear him limb from limb. Even that would be too merciful; however, if he were killed, maybe his victims could have a little peace.
May 5th, 2008 at 8:29 am
I keep thinking about Elisabeth. Maybe she never gave up hope that she would get out? After all, how many of us would have figured out a way to put ourselves out of such misery, rather than endure 24-years of that kind of hell? She could have cut her own throat, but she didn’t. I wonder, is that a testament to strength, survival and hope – or to surrender and a broken spirit?
May 5th, 2008 at 8:43 am
I wonder about that too Michelle, survivor instinct I imagine in the beginning, then she had children to care for. Once the kids were born I think it was probably more about them than her.
May 5th, 2008 at 8:49 am
“You know who stands a chance against him – those criminals he’s imprisoned with.”
Excellent point. He’s 73 years old, I hope he’s in excellent health and expected to live for a long time yet. Just so he can get the full benefits of the prison experience.
I think it’s going to be a long time before his victims can find any peace, unfortunately. But maybe if he dies an untimely and painful death, it will help speed things up.
May 5th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Sadly, Austria does not have the d.p. An article in today’s London Times has a local Austrian child specialist saying that 1 in 8 girls and 1 in 9 boys are sexually assaulted by their families – that is so disgusting.
May 5th, 2008 at 9:13 am
I dont think a painful death of him would help them at all. I think they actually more than likely have major cases of Stockholm Syndrome on top of many other things. How could they possibly not?
May 5th, 2008 at 9:15 am
I have the utmost respect for Elizabeth. She was a little girl when he “went to work” on her, and just 18 when he locked her up. She lived and gave birth twice, in a single, narrow crawl space, before he expanded the dungeon to several single, narrow crawl spaces. I’m sure many people would have gone crazy and killed themselves, and probably the children, long ago. How she managed to eke out a semblance of a life is a testament to incredible personal strength and spirit. She’d watched her mother cope for years, and applied what she learned under the ground. How she could be anything more than an animal at this point is beyond me. All of those children would be dead if it weren’t for her. I so hope she has something to live for, at this point. I hope she can find some pleasure, some solace, in something.
May 5th, 2008 at 9:21 am
“I dont think a painful death of him would help them at all. I think they actually more than likely have major cases of Stockholm Syndrome on top of many other things. How could they possibly not?”
Sometimes when the abuser dies, it actually helps the victims heal more quickly. One reason being is the abuser is no longer around to mess with their heads. Other reasons being much more complex.
The “painful” part I added in strictly for my own benefit. I have absolutely no idea if the victims harbor any of their own hopes in that regard. I’m sure they have very mixed feelings at this point.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
If her mother didn’t know about the incest between ages 11 and 18 she wasn’t paying attention to her daughter. She didn’t ask questions.
Maybe she didn’t know her daughter was in the cellar. Either way she should have investigated her husbands suspicious behavior in the cellar when he was out of town for a month!
May 6th, 2008 at 12:58 am
Melissa, the same article I mentioned said that victims seem to get better quicker if something positive is done about their attacker. In this case, it’s been so long that I wonder if the same thing applies.
May 7th, 2008 at 1:11 am
I know that he is a sicko but I have to ask a few questions before we convict this man.
1. Are we so sure that Elisabeth Fritzl was not a fugitive 24 years ago?
2. Is there any possibility that she might have an incestuous relationship with her other brothers and had these children. Will the DNA result reveals the same if these children are fathered by her brothers?
3. Not even a month after her release she is already concern to sue her wealthy father. Should she be more concern about her Vitamin D deficient skin? Is there a possibility that she is after his money now?
4. Why Josef Fritzl never deny these acts? As a criminal, he is not manipulative enough. Quite strange.
5. If a man keep a mistress will he keep her nearby to his wife? It is said that Josef Fritzl is a real property tycoon. Why on earth he stayed above the cellar where he kept his sex slave daughter. He should have build another house and stay there or stay in another property that he own.
6. He kept her there for 24 years but her eldest daughter is 19 years old and not 23 years old. Why is there a gap? Is there a possibility that 24 years ago she was not in Amstetten. She only returned there 20 years ago and started to have an incestuous relationship with her father.
7. As Josef Fritzl has a record of insurance fraud, is there a possibility this trickster is trying to make himself declared mentally ill and try to evade any financial liability?
8. How on earth Josef carried the bathtub, washing machine and refrigerator alone into the cellar?
9. When he was on holiday in Thailand for 4 weeks plus the possibility of 2 weeks more thereafter in Italy, how they dispose the garbage?
10. In his role as the ‘midwife’, how on earth he knows the exact time when the daughter to give birth?
11. Where did they dry their clothes? After 24 years not exposed to sunlight, would not there be fungus on their clothes?
12. Could the children with low antibody survive in this kind of condition?
I think this case is a hoax. This family is up to something.I just want to wait to see the ending.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:31 am
Applauds Adriana for blaming the victim.
MG thinks Adriana is probably a dude in a dress and a member of Girl Chat.
Anyone who thinks this is a hoax is probably a closet pedophile themselves or brain dead and should have their gene pool drained.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Adrina, from what planet did you come? Let’s don’t victimize Elisabeth again by casting aspersions on her.
As for previous remarks questioning Elizabeth’s lack of attempt to free herself…She had no options…at least I don’t see that she had any options but to live in the situation that her father had created. Also, keep in mind that Elisabeth and her children were in an oxygen compromised environment and it would surprise me if her brain has not been permanently altered b/c of this. Likewise, lack of sensory stimulation would have also permanently altered her mind…so we cannot apply our solutions to Elisabeth i.e. to overpower the father and manage an escape. Please, let’s don’t victimize her again and let’s don’t judge her actions.
Melissa, I agree wholeheartedly in your outrage and I agree that the mother doesn’t deserve to title of mother.
May 7th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Unspeakable act. I created the following tribute to remember the death of the newborn baby that could have been. This is not to forget that behind this horrific event, that a life was taken.
http://respectance.com/Baby_Fritzl
May 7th, 2008 at 10:41 am
Apparently, Kerstin is improving and no longer in an artificial coma. I can’t decide whether this is good, knowing the trauma she has been through – Fritzel used to rape her, too. At 19, will she be able to adjust? This case gets worse the more I learn about it. God help them all.
May 7th, 2008 at 11:24 am
That poor baby that died is the most blessed of them all. I know I would have rather died than live in that house of pain and hell.
May 7th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Adrina, what is wrong with you? I am offended on so many levels by your rant I can’t even start, but most of all, you insulted my and everyone else’s intelligence by asking a bunch of asinine questions that don’t even follow logic. Fungus on their clothes – what are you talking about? You’re just stringing together a bunch of thoughts you haven’t even bothered to try to make sense of – at least I hope you haven’t bothered, because if you have, that’s really sad. Try a little harder to make sense next time. Your comments are ridiculous. The rest of us are taking this seriously.
May 7th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Doesn’t this creepy story remind anyone of the book “Flowers in the attic”? It sounds to me like this guy was inspired by the most creepy book I ever read…..
May 7th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
I’m sorry but I’m still pissed at Adrina. What are you, some kind of a red herring? A s**t stirrer? Well, you’e not very good at it. If you want to play devil’s advocate, I’d advise finding another devil. We’ll light a torch and chase you out of here, girl.
May 7th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Fascinated–I’ve thought the very same thing.
May 7th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
“A s**t stirrer? Well, you’e not very good at it…”
I beg to differ, by the ranting going on about Adrina here and on other forums she has done quite an effective job of stirring up the pot.
“We’ll light a torch and chase you out of here, girl.”
You’ve got to be kidding me, why because you don’t like what she has to say? Because you disagree with it? Surely that is your right but to want to CHASE SOMEONE OUT OF HERE because you do not like their post is a little over the top, don’t you think? I thought this was a public domain. Maybe you don’t like what she has to say, I don’t either, but she is still entitled to express her theories or speculations just like anyone else on here.
Yes I know this post will not make me popular but I’ve never really wanted to be part of the crowd mentality and don’t intend to start now. I just had to get that out there because a lot of times on this site I see people castigated and insulted for posting an opinion that goes against the beliefs of the core group.
May 7th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
wellll now, GJ, this is the thing. I didn’t feel what she said was an opinion. I felt that it was an obvious and ill-planned attempt to cast doubt on the situation, in a ridiculous manner. For instance, posing the possibility that Elisabeth had really had the incestuous affairs with her brothers. Where the hell did that come from? When both she and her father, and the DNA tests confirmed her story? And “he should have built her another house” – what, are we critiqueing his criminal technique now? Then, let’s not forget her suggestion that Elisabeth really did run away, for four years, and was only imprisoned, raped and impregnanted for 20 years, which makes her a big, fat liar I guess? Adrina reminds me of a very stupid defense attorney I once observed who spent an entire trial making unfounded and ignorant remarks in an effort to confuse the jury. He did not. She thinks she is poking holes in the story. She is not. There are puzzle pieces missing, but all the facts aren’t in yet, and posting crazy nonsensical theories are in a word, disrespectful – to the family who may not have died, may not have been killed, but who lost their lives anyway.
But you are right that my torch comment was over the top. I kept reading the part where she said this was a hoax and we shouldn’t condemn Josef Fritzl and I just lost it. She knew that was going to piss people off when she said it. I’m human, so sue me.
May 7th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Yes I know, it’s a very strange post and I don’t know where people come up with some of the things that they do. For some reason the thought of someone being chased out of here for not voicing a popular theory had me all riled up but I’m cranky today anyway. I am just going to shut up now and let Adrina explain herself should she choose to do so.
May 7th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
I understand. The comment was designed to offend Adrina only, but, I can see how other people could be offended too, and that wasn’t my intention. I know everyone has a right to an opinion, but I felt she was mocking the blog, and that’s not what this is about. Anyway, it wasn’t important enough for anyone to get that riled up about, and I’m aggravated at myself for that.
May 7th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Please Adrina is a troll. She/he/it said those things TO piss people off and is probably having a good laugh right now.
I am cranky this week too GJ, totally hormonal apparently (thank the lord, because I honestly thought I was losing my mind).
But Cindy has the right to say get the F out as much as Adrina has the right to say what she did.
(not sure on the public domain though, we are guests in Matt & Gregg’s house here)
May 7th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Adrina wow not popular but a few things she/he said I have thought about myself.
1 – very unlikely
2 – DNA already proved they are Josef’s children
3 – According to the recent financial information released Josef is in mortgage up to his balding head. If she is to be able to feed and care for her children now she has to sue him to get anything out of his holdings. It’s a matter of necessity. They will be lucky not to end up on the street.
4 – Because he is is psychotic, simple
5 – His goal was not just to have sex with her it was to control her sex was just one of the many tools. She was no mistress.
6 – In deep trama and stress situations such as this the female body often stops ovulating
7 – yes
8 – hand truck special dolly used to move large appliances also note the tub appears pretty small
9 – Good question I had not thought of that one I hope he enjoyed taking out the trash
10 – he probably didn’t poor girl probably suffered alone for hours on end
11 – I wondered about that one myself, must have been unbearable
12 – if you recall he sent the sickly ones upstairs the more healthy ones he left in the cellar. Obviously some minor effort was made to keep them simi healthy. The note she wrote stated she gave her oldest daughter asprin and cough medicine.
May 7th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
One other important fact though Adrina if it’s a hoax… you can’t get into the kind of physical condition these poor souls are in by hoax. I’m no doctor but I don’t think you can fake these symptoms.
May 7th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Nancibelle, great answers!
I never wondered about the garbage for the month, but more about the food.
Is it possible to stock a small refridgerator with a months worth of food for 4 people? (the fridge I saw was like a small beer fridge, not a full kitchen one, and certainly not capable of freezing loads of food)
May 7th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
I can’t imagine they were all that hungry and probably ate canned or packaged food. My son rented the bottom floor of a home in Germany. The refrigerator was built into the cabinets and was very small. He had a second refrigerator to hold all the food he kept and he was just one guy.
I wonder about the children as toddlers — how active they are at that age with a tremendous need to run, jump, and play. Poor babies. Truth is, I am having a hard time imaging what life must have been in that cellar for all those years.
Nancibelle, great response to Adrina’s post — be it a hoax or real.
May 7th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Michelle gray: people from Center is below you?
May 7th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
I mean I come from White Center: Michelle Gray think this: If you com from a bad neighborhood you have no right to speak! Olsen an Phelps applaud that kind of comment!!! We live in a bad neighborhood, therefore we are not allowed to comment on Crimerant!
Great Michelle! You are a real sophisticated person.
You have to live on Mercer Island to have some brain. i guess? PLANK!!!!!
May 7th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
ps: This is a great neighborhood. Don’t produce idiots like Grey, Olsen. melissa, phelps. Just people that like to talk and have coffee when they have time. GOOD PEOPLE!
May 7th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
I made a mistake. My comupter is under repair. I LIVE IN WHITE CENTER, and I’m PROUD of it.. You go Michelle grey, Olsen and phelps.. Live on you awfully expensive islands. We never wrote cheap book to get there. You did. We repair cars, and we are getting laughed at, by Michelle Grey.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Looks like Adrina and Let People Talk is our little troll Kristi.
Funny thing, Kristi, I was just guessing at your location. Now I know I was right. You’re a White Center girl. Hell, even trailer trash is two steps above most of the garbage in White Center.
I have lived in bad neighborhoods, Kristi, which gives me plenty of right to speak. But even if I hadn’t been around bad neighborhoods I still have the right to voice my opinion. Just like you do, you brain dead little pain in the ass.
Actually, I’m quite familiar with White Center, which is why I know what a crappy ass, piece of shit, crime infested, drug ridden, welfare role receiving community of uneducated illiterates it truly is. The schools suck in White Center because the community is so crappy that the only teachers they can get are the ones no one else wants. Pretty much the only people who do not strive to LEAVE White Center are lazy ass mofo’s with a refrigerator full of government cheese. The only other residents in that nasty little town are old folks or immigrants (who are also on welfare, incidentally). No one who ISN’T on drugs wants to raise their kids there. Don’t make it out to be some place where the downtrodden and folks who are hard on their luck find themselves because that isn’t even close to the truth and you know it. I know a hell of a lot about Rat City, Kristi. Hell, I probably know you!
Now, how about you be a good little lush puppy and head on down to the bar, and be sure and give Marv my love. Or are you workin’ the street tonight, dear? Blow jobs up to, what, $5 bucks in White Center these days? You should be able to at least make your cigarette money. Run along now, Trampetta…
May 7th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
You probably do auto repair scams. I’ve probably investigated you!
May 7th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
What is trailer trash. Never met one of those.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Peple that’s bwlow you. I guess?
May 7th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
a working class hero is something to be, michelle, and, no, we don’t cheat people. You assume so cause we’re coming from White Center. Probably do auto repair scams? Been living in this neighborhood for 15 years. Nobody scammed me.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Kristi said: “a working class hero is something to be, michelle”
Thank you, Kristi. Such a nice compliment…
lol
May 7th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
I look forward to you investigating me. I’m still in the phonebook? So how did you find out where I live? My lawyer is looking into that. Olsen or Phelps gave away my e-mail addres to you.. that’s the only way..
May 7th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Michelle: So how come you attack my working class neighborhood?? You are such a fake.
May 7th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Did anyone else see the presentation posted by the BBC on May 5th?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7384182.stm
It appears from the presentation of the building and what he says about the cellar that all of the previously discussed diagrams of the cellar were all wrong. It appears more likely there was only two rooms where they were held and one was the “extension”. He stated the extension had been there all along and only Josef knew about it. All he had to do was make the narrow passage. However he does say several times that they believe there are more rooms that they have not yet found.
It seems thus far nothing about this case ever gives even a tiny glimmer of relief.
May 7th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
It was a remark in relation to auto repair scams and that I’ve probably investigated your shop in relation to that. It was a sarcastic remark based on knowing White Center and the likelihood of finding a legitimate repair business there, let alone one that employs someone as stupid as you are. You’re an idiot, Kristi. You couldn’t find your own ass with someone else’s hands and a map. You’re a worthless troll with too much time on their hands and an Internet connection. You’re a shit stirring pain in the ass that never has a damn thing productive to add to a single conversation that has ever taken place at Crime Rant.
If I had your email address, Kristi, you would have had a personal message from me in your email a LONG time ago – you worthless troll. You gave your own location away. You’re just too big of a dipshit to have realized it. All I needed from you was confirmation of my suspicion. And you were more than happy to take the bait and jump right in with an affirmative. You’re an idiot and quite frankly, I don’t like you.
Now, you little attention whore, go find a street and play in it until you can find something to say that actually contributes to the topic at hand. It’s more than apparent that everyone who comments here regularly is really tired of you and your bullshit. Grow the hell up and act like an adult or keep your ass planted firmly on your hands because no one wants to hear your nonsense anymore!
And, White Center isn’t a working class neighborhood, Kristi. There aren’t many people in White Center who do much other than live off of their welfare and Indian money. There are few decent people, but they’re few and far between. You, Kristi, are an excellent example of the intellect that comes out of White Center, let alone the type of people.
Burien is a working class community, so is West Seattle and Des Moines. White Center is nothing more the crab infested crotch of the Pacific Northwest.
Sorry for getting off topic all. But damn it, she just freaking pisses me off. Of all the damn posts to pull her shit. Grrrrrrrrr
Freaking twit should be slapped just for the fun of watching her ass shoot off the bar stool and slap against the floor!
May 7th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
OK, Michelle, sending this to neighborhood paper.
I’m a worthless troll. I’m an idiot, and quite frankly Michelle Gray don’t like me. She writes:
“Now, you little attention whore,” Michelle Grey says, “grow the hell up and act like an adult or keep you ass planted firmly on your hand because no one wants to hear your nonsense anymore!”
“And, White Center isn’t a working class neighborhood, Kirsti. There aren’t many people in White Center who do much other than live off their wellfare and Indian money.”says Michelle Grey.
“There are a few decent people in White Center, but they are far in between. “You. Kirst, are an excellent example of intellect that comes out of
white Center. (heyheyhey YOU CALLED ME AN IDIOT EARLIER..)
So white Center is the most crab infested crotch of the Pacific Nothwest.
Great stuff Michelle!
May 7th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
PRINTED OUT AND KEPT FOREVER!
May 8th, 2008 at 5:47 am
Don’t forget to have it framed, Kirsti.
May 8th, 2008 at 5:57 am
Alright, from now on if anyone says anything inexcuseably stupid I’m just gonna assume it’s from someone who doesn’t have anything better to do than try to f**k with folks who care. It really sucks that people make up posts just to screw with other people. You who are guilty can go straight to hell in a handbag. Better yet, fly to Austria and crawl into bed with Fritzl’s lawyer. He could use the company, he’s one dumb, lonely SOB right now.
May 8th, 2008 at 6:39 am
I have to add one more thing and then I’m done:
Kirsti-Adrina-LetPeopleLive,
Sweetie, I’m not trying to put you down, but you need to quit being so paranoid. And please quit denying who you are. I’ve gone back and looked; the fact is, in all the posts under all three names, you write in the same broken English. It is obviously not your first language. You keep making the same kind of grammatical mistakes throughout. That is how we know you are the same person. There’s nowhere for you to hide on these blogs now.
May 8th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
HAHA! First of all: I’m not Adriana. 10 fingers on the Bible, and I’m a devoted Lutheran. I’m Kirsti for the most part. “Let people speak,” was me too. Adriana-post is so lon, I can’t even get trough reading it. I have no idea what she asks.
Sorry about my broken English. English is my fourth language. Sorry about my grammaticals…Hahaha.
May 8th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
btw: Long complicated posts: Not my MO.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:54 am
Kirsti, none of us care . Be a good girl and go play elsewhere.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
NAAHHH.. I don’t find any like you anywhere else. You are quite entertaining, my little friend. So dumb, you are..
I DON’T CARE ABOUT YOU EITHER, f.ing little English snotty-snob. Go and cozy up with grandma.. Sorry that you pee-wee is so minimal.
May 10th, 2008 at 3:20 am
If I’m dumb, what does that make you?
May 10th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Bright.
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Somebody had to know because he said that if he were to die the chamber doors would eventually open and the family would be able to escape the hell that he put them through. HE was in thailand for a long period of time, yet the door never opened for them leave. Someone close to him or some other sick pervert might have helped him out and helped give them food and necessities while he was gone.
May 10th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
[...] Crimerant » Blog Archive » Picture This: Where Uber-Creep Josef … [...]
June 10th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Here is a comment that I would like to make
about Josef Fritzl and his wife Rosemarie …
Clearly that “person” (and one has to stretch the
definition of the word “person” in order to apply
it to that creature) known to the world as Josef
Fritzl was / is the DEVIL-INCARNATE —- AND
he should burn in h*ll for all of eternity for his evil.
In addition, it also needs to be stated that no person
on earth should allow themselves be fooled for
even one moment by the lies of “I didn’t know”
that are currently being claimed by that lying
and equally evil wife of this evil DEVIL!!!
That vile, evil, perverted, disgusting, devil
b**tch of a wife of that MONSTER KNEW!!
SHE KNEW!!! SHE KNEW!!! SHE KNEW!!!
She KNEW the whole time (or at least had
literally no excuse whatsoever to have not
at least ‘suspected’ something was amiss!!!)
She is a LIAR and she must think the entire world is
as perverted as both she and her husband are and
that by coming up with that ridiculous and flimsy
excuse that she can then convince the rest of
the world to then respond to her own complicity
the same way she chose to respond to that of
her husband’s evil — by ‘turning a blind eye’.
BOTH of them are utter DEVILS and one
cannot help but to hope that they both burn
in h*ll for all of eternity for their evil acts!!!!
She expects anyone on this planet who has even
half-a-brain-stem to believe for even one fraction
of a moment that she didn’t know anything at all?!?!
Give me a break!!!
For crying out loud–unless this woman is Helen
Keller –she has NO EXCUSE at all to not have
known (or at least ’suspected’) something strange
and conspiratorial was going on regarding her
daughter’s whereabouts and situation and that the
husband’s stories were just far too incredulous
and absolutely made no sense in the least bit!!!
After all — think about it — daughter runs away as a
very young teen; daughter mysteriously disappears
at the age of 18 (an age when she can both make
her own decisions and choose to get away from
her father and even bring charges against him); the
(convicted-rapist/arsonist) father gets a letter from
daughter 1 month after her disappearance which
ridiculously claims she has joined a cult and does
not want to have any contact with the family – yet
amazingly then later chooses (for 3 years in a row)
to simply leave 3 of her newborn babies on the
doorstep of very home that she tried to run away
from at least 2 X’s before and is “allegedly thought”
to have finally left in order to join some sort of
“phantom” cult (a “cult” which, unlike every other
cult, just somehow, seemingly has no desire to try
to indoctrinate the youth from birth, but rather it
simply allows it’s members to select a home –one
which in fact, is both not a part of the cult AND is
the very home from which the member ran in order
to join the cult —to raise their babies and kids of
the cult members) –ALL THE WHILE – the father
forbids ANYONE to ever for ANY REASON dare to
go ANYWHERE NEAR the mysterious basement
(which he always keeps locked, disappears to for
hours and days on end; has ‘unseen’ bathroom
equipment installed; and has a cement-barricaded
door installed which both has a security-code and
which was so complicated it needed inspection
by local government authorities in order to install).
Just 2 years before the “discovery” of what this
monster (and his devil wife via her complicity of
silence) did to their poor child – another young girl,
and former kidnap victim, was also found in Austria.
It was discovered that the other young kidnap /
rape victim had disappeared 8 years earlier and
had been held in a basement / dungeon where
she had been repeatedly raped the entire time
by the individual who had also kidnapped her.
Now —- even if the public was expected to
simply throw all common sense to the wind
and accept this monster’s devil-wife’s excuse
that she “didn’t know”, say, in the beginning …
it still stands to reason that after hearing about
the case of the other young girl 2 years earlier
—– this creep’s equally creepy wife would
have said something to herself like, say …
”””Hmmm … a young girl who disappeared 8 years
ago, out of no where, has been discovered
to have been held in a basement the entire
time and while there she was repeatedly
raped by the person who trapped her there.
Hmmm … my daughter, who repeatedly tried
to run away from my convicted-rapist husband
as a child has also mysteriously disappeared
– and – my convicted-rapist husband is
always coming across both ‘letters’ and
‘grandchildren’ that were allegedly left
by my daughter (who has vanished
without a trace) — and – meanwhile
my convicted-rapist husband also
has a mysterious basement that he
keeps under lock and key and never
allows anyone to come near — ever.
Hmmm … now I cannot help but to wonder
if that convicted-rapist husband I married
just may have had something to do with
the disappearance of our daughter – and
– the appearance of all these grandkids
and letters – and I also can’t help but to
wonder if that mystery-basement room
of his would, in some way / in any way,
be connected somehow to our child’s
disappearance and / or the mysterious
appearance of all of these grandchildren.”””
Yes – one would think that – even if this woman
could have claimed ‘ignorance’ earlier – (a lie
which, again, no one with any common sense
should ever consider buying into) – once the
discovery was made of a similar situation 2
years earlier – she then had NO excuse to not
have at least been suspicious of something
about her convicted-rapist husband and his
ever-so-mysterious hidden basement room.
That vicious devil simply did not care at all about
her own daughter – or — she simply cared more
about her own creature-comforts and keeping up
with her middle-class appearances than she did
about the torture being done to her own child.
THAT POOR GIRL’S VILE, DISGUSTING
PERVERTED LYING B*TCH OF A MOTHER
KNEW FULL WELL WHAT WAS GOING ON
– SHE KNEW– SHE KNEW– SHE KNEW!!!
THAT WIFE IS A B*TCH, A DEVIL AND A
VILE PERVERT AND ONE CANNOT HELP
BUT TO TRULY HOPE THAT— SINCE SHE
OBVIOUSLY FELT SOME STRANGE NEED
TO BE SO VERY LOYAL TO THAT DEVIL,
OF A PERVERTED CONVICTED-RAPIST
AND ARSONIST FREAK OF A HUSBAND
OF HERS AND TO CHOOSE TO STAND BY
HIS SIDE FOR A QUARTER OF A CENTURY
ALL THE WHILE THAT HE IMPRISONED
AND ALSO SEXUALLY AND PHYSICALLY
AND MENTALLY TORTURED THEIR CHILD
— SHE WILL CONTINUE TO REMAIN BY
HIS SIDE AS THEY BOTH BURN IN H*LL
TOGETHER FOR ALL OF ETERNITY!!
She is clearly as much of a
pervert and devil as is he!!
Would anyone even be remotely surprised
if further investigation later revealed that
‘Rosemarie Fritzl’ (who is actually trying to
get the world to see her as a co-victim of
her daughter’s horrific nightmare of a life)
was actually just another ‘Rosemary West’
(a woman whose husband also originally –
and falsely – claimed that she had nothing
to do with his unbelievably evil sex crimes)?
What kind of a woman, after all, chooses to marry
(or remained married to) a man who had already
committed and also been convicted of previously
raping another woman and has shown absolutely
no remorse about any of it whatsoever in the least.
SHE KNEW!!! SHE KNEW!!! SHE KNEW!!!
September 4th, 2009 at 7:38 am
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