Picture This: Off His Meds
Six dead in another campus shooting.
Steven P. Kazmierczak killed five, then himself, in a geology lecture hall rampage at Northern Illinois University yesterday.
Today, comes word that Kazmierczak was off his meds.
There’s a familiar ring to the bell here. There’s something wrong with a country that doesn’t treat mental illness as seriously as physical ailments.
We’ve seen it before. We’ll see it again.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
I just wonder why we have so many mental ailments these days. Maybe it was always like this but it got no attention before all the psychotrophic drugs were discovered. There must be a common mental defect in these types of men.
February 15th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
I’m afraid to give my opinion, but here is it.
As a firm believer that most physical ailments are psychosomatic in nature, I first cut/paste Webster’s dictionary’s definition below.
1 : of, relating to, concerned with, or involving both mind and body
2 : of, relating to, involving, or concerned with bodily symptoms caused by mental or emotional disturbance
Also believe this works in reverse. If one does not believe in a personal God or spritual issues, they are not about to see things as I do…but I think that a person who is not raised with honorable moral values is set on a path of destruction for themselves.
Today, we plop our youngsters in front of violent video games, dump them in daycare 10+ hours a day, yell and scream at them, let them listen to anger-filled music, have traumatic maritial relationships in front of them, and then actually wonder why they are disturbed!
From what I’ve read and researched, offenders such as Cho normally have “buried” resentment very, deeply within themselves (remember, no one ever heard him talk almost!). When it rises to the surface…what we get is what we see happening all over in today’s society.
We pump our kids full of drugs for ADHD and what not which does NOT address the root of the problem…only makes it easier for the parents and schools or whatever to handle them. Like putting numbing solution on a rotting tooth. You may not feel it anymore, but it is still rotting away.
I won’t go on a Christianity rant because I also feel most Christians today are so far off what Christ was teaching it is a joke!! They preach forgiveness while secretly judging others and putting them down in their own eyes…looking at them with smiling faces although their true feelings are of hate or loathing. NOT how it should be.
I believe in a personal God and believe in Christ, but it is PERSONAL and I do not bother with church because it is mostly a social club where folks go to feel better about themselves…not GET better or BE better.
Sorry if I offended anyone, but my firm belief is a spiritual disease that starts in the home and is due to broken families because of broken people starting from the beginning. It is only going to get worse, so get ready.
(still looking for a cave :>P)
February 15th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Troll, I can agree with a lot of what you said about mental illness being due to not living an honest and honorable life. But a lot of kids who grow up like that do make changes and live an honorable life as adults. Something must have been tormenting these individuals to make them commit murders like this. But I do agree that it is a spiritual disease in nature.
February 15th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Having lost two relatives to biopolar disorder and having some friends with it, I have always wondered why there is no “under the skin” type of medication for this. Something that would last six months or so at a time.
February 15th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
That makes a lot of sense JW. Something a doc can give them so that society doesn’t have to worry about them “not taking their meds”.
February 15th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Troll, I am afraid I disagree. It has been proven that many mental illnesses are actually a mental manifestation of a physical cause, quite often a biochemical imbalance. It is also proven that these things can have a genetic link. I know from experience that my father in law and several of my brothers and sisters in law all have a form of bipolar disorder.
I do not doubt that this latest mass shooting is a tragedy but I do doubt that it comes solely from an immoral upbringing.
February 15th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
The problem with the under the skin as you put it JW, is that a lot of times with psychological illness they really have to switch up the meds depending how the patient reacts to them.
For example, there are a lot of depression drugs out there that make depressed people suicidal and deranged. It usually takes a while to get the right meds for an individual.
February 15th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Not for nothin, but doesnt it look like this guy waxed his eyebrows?
February 15th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
I have to disagree with the idea of being raised right and gods having to do anything with mental illness.
This stuff doesn’t look at race, religion, age, status. My grand ma just killed herself some years back, she was bipolar as I am and as is my mother. She was also scitzo but that hasn’t come over – yet.
It’s in my genes and I never knew till it triggered. Faulting it to anything or blaming the victim of the disease is just horribly wrong. I have known so much various people, like the 16 year old who heard voices and just thought it normal till he had to see a doc for other stuff.
Some of these “kids” are only 10 or less years younger than me. I doubt it’s the age either. Mental illness is real illness.
February 15th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
While I agree that growing up in a dysfunctional home can cause a person to end up with various mental illnesses, I do not agree that incompetent parenting and/or the lack of spiritual guidance is responsible for all of it. Lets not forget the so-called ‘holy’ who go out and kill in the name of God.
February 15th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
I think you all misunderstand…
February 15th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Lol, Melissa I had the very same thought.
February 15th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Melissa, yes. And I’d not go to that place myself. Not a good job done.
February 15th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
On the flip side of the crappy, dysfunctional parenting is to blame thing, I’ve know extraordinary families, with few real problems who’ve had mentally ill offspring.
I’ve also seen multiple kids in the same family, 2 come out just fine, and one has big problems (hypothetical numbers, but you get my point I’m sure.).
And Sophie–can you clarify? How is it that we ALL misunderstand?
It’s complicated, and no one person on this board or anywhere else, is going to come up with the definitive explanation.
February 15th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Yeah, I am kinda wondering what I didn’t understand. Troll was kinda sounding Tom Cruise-ish with thinking that mental and physical ailments are psychosomatic, and then said that mentally ill people are a product of their upbringing (some are don’t get me wrong), but it is a physical illness of your brain and body chemistry. And there is a reason that most people think Tom Cruise is a nut-job.
February 15th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
[...] Picture This: Off His Meds Seven dead in another campus shooting. Steven P. Kazmierczak killed six, then himself, in a geology lecture hall rampage at Northern Illinois University yesterday. Today, comes word that Kazmierczak was off his meds. … credit : http://www.crimerant.com/?p=1483 [...]
February 15th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Tom Cruise and his “we have to help because only we CAN help” diatribe, is in a category unto it’s own.
I wouldn’t put Troll there, but I do know that you’re saying.
Troll–people have only “plop”ing their children in front of violent video games for a decade or two. Mental illness and violent tendencies have been around always.
February 15th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
And I’d just like to point out that neither “spirituality” nor moral fortitude have anything to do with whether you have a “personal God” or a relationship to Jesus Christ.
In fact, (around here, ho, hum…) there are plenty of people (x-husband, for example) who believe that without Jesus in their life, they’d be out rapin, pillagin, and murderin, and that scares me to death! What happens if they lose their faith??
There are SO many factors which can contribute to Mental Illness, including a little something we call Chemical Imbalances in the Brain, that to isolate one factor shows incredible ignorance of the issue.
I too wondered about this dude’s eyebrows; they look sorta like a trans-gender person! (Not that there’s anything WRONG with that…)
February 15th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
My prayers to all the families affected, including his…
February 16th, 2008 at 6:51 am
Hi Einseins Mom,
I do not believe ANYONE who kills and claims to do so in the “name of God” is instructed by any “god” to do so (more like the opposite). They are using that as an excuse….lying about their true motives which is that they hate those they kill.
As for kids who come out of bad home-lives and do well, that is truly a mystery to me because that too happens…just as those raised in what appears on the outside to be a good home…but in reality is not.
Let’s take that preacher’s wife who shot her hubby in the back and ran off with the three kids. EVERYONE in the church and their families thought they were the ‘perfect family’. Once the wife’s story came out, we learn the preacher hubby wasn’t so nice. Forced her to wear wigs and perform what she considered “unnatural” sex acts…talked down to her telling her she was stupid. So, although I do not agree she should have shot him at all, she finally “broke” from living a double-lying existance. One existance at home, one to the public that she couldn’t stand any longer. Rather than leave, she chose the worst thing she could have.
As for mental illness being caused by chemical stuff in the body, that actually ties back perfectly to my original feelings. Emotions and/or suppression of such cause those changes.
I realize everyone is not going to agree and I would not expect that as we are individuals, but so far every post I”ve read is really good and honest. Thanks for letting me see “into” how you guys think. I love that stuff! Even trolls can be inquisitive ;>)
February 16th, 2008 at 6:59 am
Melissa, respectfully, I think Tom Cruise is a whack job and feel scientology is a true cult. They are more like brainwashers. I managed to get myself involved in a cult called “The Way” as a teen because I was being rebellions and see major similarities…so no…I do not support Tom’s or scientology’s views.
That said, about the ONLY thing I’ve ever heard out of Tom I can somewhat agree with is the subject of the abuse of psych drugs. Unlike Mr. Cruise, I DO think they can be used to help a person get to where they do not need them, but sadly in more cases than not the person winds up on them forever.
still, I am really enjoying the posts on this subect. And as another poster said, feel terribly for the victim’s and their families.
February 16th, 2008 at 7:33 am
This is a tough subject. From what I read, some of these patients can be so devious, and so good at it… nobody suspects they are off their meds until it’s too late.
And I don’t know what we, as a society, can do. Obviously, people who are an imminent danger to others and themselves should be committed. And then you run into the “can you commit them involuntarily”… and that opens up other cans of worms, as we have seen in the Britney case.
I watched my grandmother suffer thru mental illness. And whenever she went off her meds, she ended up in the hospital for extended periods. As children, we didn’t know why grandma was in the hospital all the time…
We certainly can’t police all of the mentally ill people running amok. It’s a very scary situation. Often too late, damage is done. Murder, mayhem…. and then after the fact we find out: OHHHHHHH…. they went off their meds.
Maybe better follow-up and policing of people who doctors KNOW are on meds.. but with our medical system the way it is, I doubt that will ever happen. When you think of people with no insurance, doctors so overworked they don’t remember your name, etc….. I fear this situation isn’t about to change anytime soon.
February 16th, 2008 at 7:59 am
I think we have a problem with semantics here; mental illness is a physical problem an imbalance of nuero chemicals. Children who grow up with horribly abusive parents frequently aquire emotional illnesses like the very rare DID (disassociative Identity Disorder) that used to be called multiple personality disorder such as Sybil.
February 16th, 2008 at 8:18 am
Brenda, I agree, and thank you for your input.
Here is an article saying this killer did not fit ‘the profile’ of a mass murderer: http://tinyurl.com/2mlhhc
February 16th, 2008 at 9:22 am
Today, with medication individuals with mental health problems can live relatively normal lives out of the watchful eyes of their family. They can function in their day to day lives, but if they don’t take their meds all that can change dramatically. What happens if they can’t afford the meds or choose not to take them and no one is monitoring their behaviors?
I had a student that took medication for ADHD, and when he was on his meds he could do his work and more appropriately interact with his peers. He still had serious issues, but he could function. Everyday when he walked in the room, I knew if he had his meds or if he didn’t. There was nothing I could do if he didn’t, because I am not allowed to ask about his medications. One day, he was extremely moody, argumentative, and went out of his way to pick fights with the other kids who knew to lay low. There was nothing I could do but get through they day. At midday, he was even more agitated but still in control, but after lunch another student made a comment that set him off and he threw a chair across the room. He wasn’t throwing the chair at anyone. He was just angry and striking out. Fortunately, he was a tall child and the chair cleared the heads of the kids sitting between him and the wall. This was one tiny incident but a scary one that could have ended with someone being hurt.
Medications manage certain mental issues, but they do not cure them. Can we demand these people to take their meds? If they don’t, what can we do? It would seem an impossible task and the words “Constitutional rights” keep floating through my head. Do the rights of privacy and freedom of choice supersede the public’s right to be informed and safe?
And Tom Cruise is a nutcase and an arrogant one at that. He does nothing to defuse the suspicion and poor perception of mental health problems. If I am a diabetic, no one questions my need for medication; so why do we stigmatize the need for medications to help manage mental conditions?
February 16th, 2008 at 9:49 am
I’m confused–Brenda, are you Troll?
February 16th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Compassrose says:
“If I am a diabetic, no one questions my need for medication; so why do we stigmatize the need for medications to help manage mental conditions?”
I think it’s because we’re afraid. We want control (as people in general), and we don’t want to believe we can pass (mental) illness down to our beloved offspring, so we make it an avoidable (bad childhood, etc.) anomaly.
February 16th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Troll (IS that you, Brenda? I am confused, too!)says,”We pump our kids full of drugs for ADHD and what not which does NOT address the root of the problem…only makes it easier for the parents and schools or whatever to handle them. Like putting numbing solution on a rotting tooth. You may not feel it anymore, but it is still rotting away.”
I have heard variations of this so often over my years as an educator, and I take offense to the idea that I just want to make the child “easier to handle”!!! As Compassrose so aptly put it, most of these kids on meds “still have serious issues, but they can FUNCTION”! Function is the key word here, because many of these children simply cannot function in a school setting at all without the meds (whether they are for ADD,ADHD, or emotional/mental issues). And they have to be in a school setting for many years. Without the meds, the years drag on and they are left behind academically and socially, unable to reach their potential. In my experience, many of these kids with attention problems fall at the upper end of the ability scale, too, which makes it even sadder that they cannot function. Many, many parents choose not to medicate (at least for a long time) and teachers and students are forced to make the best of the situation. I would like to think that most teachers do have the best interests of the students in mind when hoping for meds, not just wanting to make their job easier. One child out of control or off-task affects the whole classroom!
Compassrose’s example is all too familiar. I am not an expert, but have many years of experience in both special ed and regular classrooms. For some children, medication is a miracle that allows them to achieve and function. Convincing parents and finding the right meds. is a challenge sometimes, though. MHO
February 16th, 2008 at 10:45 am
A, I completely agree with you comments, but somehow, I hope we can change that thinking.
I am reading John Grisham’s “The Innocent Man,” and it is tragic to see how little help Ron Williamson received for his mental illness and how that lack of understanding or help destroyed his already tragic life. We spend so much money on other things, but we seem reluctant to offer what would make a true difference. This is a very complex issue that steps dangerously close to managing other person’s life, but with the increasing number of cases where medicated individuals are committing horrifc crimes, we need address the problem.
February 16th, 2008 at 10:49 am
I agree GAM. In today’s classrooms there are no consequences for bad behavior so there is no discipline. Teachers and student’s shouldn’t have to put up with disruptive behavior and if a child needs meds to make it through the day, then they ought to have them. It isn’t fair to evreyone around them.
I also agree with Troll in that spirituality affects a person’s mental health. That doesn’t mean that they have to be in church every time the doors open. it just means that when people live a life of honesty [especially to themselves] and their behavior and choices reflect ethical and moral values, they are more likely to be the ones that take care of themselves mentally and otherwise.
I have taken an antidepressant for a long time and I know their value. But this isn’t the only reason I am not wigged out.
February 16th, 2008 at 10:56 am
Sophie says:
“In today’s classrooms there are no consequences for bad behavior so there is no discipline”
Really?? Is this truly accurate?
I have pretty good kids, but at least one of them has met the principle a time or two.
February 16th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Where I live it is absolutely accurate.
February 16th, 2008 at 11:07 am
Oh really?
Sophie, how is it you have the ultimate answer for everything? What experience do you have in the schools?
Opinions are one thing, but speaking in absolutes is absurd.
February 16th, 2008 at 11:12 am
I don’t have the ultimate answer for everything. But thank you for thinking so. I am honored.
February 16th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
I know all TOO well of what someone is like when they refuse to take their medication. It’s not pretty.
February 16th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Whoa! I am a little shocked too, with the broad comment: “In today’s classrooms there are no consequences for bad behavior so there is no discipline” !!! Even as a teacher I don’t feel qualified to make such a generalization! It may be true in some places, but I hardly think it fair to include ALL classrooms in this opinion. I also find it interesting that we are bringing discipline into a discussion about attention problems and emotional/mental disorders. While I realize that many disruptions in schools are caused by poorly disciplined students, I was referring to those students who have problems beyond their control. It might be almost too easy if I could “fix” the classic ADHD child by keeping him in from recess, giving a detention, or even a swat to his behind!!! In fact, I have had to keep these students in from recess in order to complete work that they haven’t been able to get done in the course of the day, but I feel almost guilty for doing so! Also, they still are often not able to focus enough without constant one-on-one attention! There is no easy answer…and I definitely don’t think that more discipline would fix the problems to which I am referring. In fact, some of the students with emotional issues may already be receiving too much “discipline” at home!
February 16th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Right now in the county I live in there are 37 lawsuits pending claming discrimination and abuse. Our educators are not allowed to discipline at any level. I hope to hell that the rest of society isn’t dealing with this. Even an expulsion or a suspension can be appealed here and that is insane!
February 16th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
I am sorry Sophie, coming late into this. But WHAT even if that were true does that have to do with mentall illness and how its not taken seriously?
February 16th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Sophie, my student that threw the chair was reacting to not having his medication not misbehaving because he was undisciplined. I will grant you discipline is different today but so is everything in education, but there is discipline. Truth is, my children work harder today, with fewer breaks, and with absolutely no fluff in the curriculum. In many ways, I would say today’s child is better disciplined and more focused than ever before. I do know what you are referring to in regard to some parents that will not accept consequences for their children. But, doesn’t that reflect an element of today’s society where there is always a reason or excuse for bad choices. It’s not exclusive to education.
February 16th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Here is something interesting. Kazmierczak was discharged from the military on a pychological discharge. Which as far as I know is NOT private information.
Furthere, where he bought his guns, they only have the people fill out cards saying that you are not being treated for psychological problems.
The quick check background check only determines if you have a criminal background.
Hell, my background check for my job took a MONTH to get through. Not 15 minutes. This is sick in my opinion. Not only that, he was able to buy MULTIPLE guns from the same shop. Which was supposedly a federally sponsored gun shop.
February 16th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
So we have issues with people dealing with problems by taking a gun and killing people. I read this article today in the local paper. In light of everything that is happening these days with this type of crime all I can say is WTF? Why did this guy even get bail.
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/02/16/0216arrest.html
February 16th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
And since he is in Texas, and hasnt been convicted of anything he can get guns now just as easily as he did before his arrest.
No, the second amendment doesnt need any changes made to it. Lets just let this keep on happening.
And WHY isnt he in a mental hospital? Seems to me this guy is a danger to himself and society.
February 16th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Did I read this right? They fired Nipper because he was not doing the work they were paying him to do and NOT because he threatened to kill a bunch of people at work. God forbid, they should fire him without just cause.
February 16th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
“The terms of Nipper’s release dictate that he have no contact with anyone at Schwab and that he may not own any weapons.” I’m sure that makes his ex-wife and former co-workers feel better…
February 16th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Melissa,
Even though he has not been convicted his arrest will show up and he will not be permitted to purchase a gun. Still if he is as angry as they say he is that won’t stop him from getting one.
Yes Compassrose,
Texas being a right to work state they don’t have to have any reason to fire him. Still that was the reason they gave and not because he was going to kill people.
I can’t beleive they let him out. It is obvious that this was not idle talk. The man had an arsonal at his home. So what if they gave him a restraining order. When he shows up at the workplace to kill them it will be a day late and a dollar short.
I am angry and outraged that the courts allowed this man to walk. I will be very surprised if in the next couple of weeks we don’t read about another massacre. Just think how pissed this guy is now that his picture has shown up in the paper. If they thought he was mad before….
February 16th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Gam,
We must have been posting at the same time!
February 16th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
I guess so, TxMichelle! I have the same fears you do about this guy…
February 16th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Really, how fast does TX DMV records (where they do the quick checks) show up?
He could have bought quite a few just minutes after his release.
February 16th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
It doesn’t matter there are no registration requirements for shotguns. He can march right over to Cabelas and load up on them. Hence the reason I said WTF that he got out at all.
February 16th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
Actually I worded that wrong. There are no registration requirements on own a shotgun or handgun, so long as you don’t take it out of your house and carry it on your person. HOwever you can go to the local walmart and buy a shotgun without a background check etc.
February 16th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Yeah, and they arent hard to hide are they? This is fucking ridiculous.
February 17th, 2008 at 8:16 am
I checked with my resident gun owner and hunter about gun laws. In Texas you don’t have to register any gun but they do a background check on any gun you buy. You can apply and pay a fee to carry a concealed weapon, and you can even get a machine gun permit for a fee. Jeeze!
This gun store has posted the requirements for gun ownership in Texas:
http://www.texas-on-line.com/gun.html
Here is a current article that ranks the states by how well they regulate guns sales:
http://www.star-telegram.com/state_news/story/446640.html
But– it is not hard to buy or acquire a gun illegally. If gun owner wants to make some extra money, they can sell a gun to anyone whenever they want. They’ll worry about the consequences later and probably lie if the sell is discovered. Criminals or determined psychos will find a way to get whatever they want to commit crimes and/or harm society. Gun laws did not prevent ex-convict Joseph Duncan from having that nasty shotgun he used to commit his crime.
Like so much if our life today, we can’t expect laws to prevent people from making poor or illegal choices. I don’t think hemming them in will not change their determination to strike out. It might slow them down, but family, friends, and coworkers are going to have to step up and step in when they see an individual is spiraling out of control. This “it isn’t my business” is becoming fatal, but that is a whole nother kettle of fish, isn’t it?
Odd thing to me is when these gun attacks happen there seem to be an equal number of people that think we need to regulate and eliminate guns while another group thinks we need to allow more people to own guns and carry them for protection.
February 17th, 2008 at 9:33 am
It is too bad about the stigmatism. I have given up trying to explain to people why I have to take Zoloft. It’s like an immediate response… oh… she’s nuts… can’t handle life…. she needs to just “get over it”. If they only knew what it’s like to be clinically depressed.
Oh well, my doctor said to just look at like being diabetic, I NEED the meds, I will need them for the rest my life. So just take them. Period. And I do. It’s 4 generations now, my grandmother, my mother, me, and now my daughter. Sucks, but such is life sometimes.
I just wish everyone who needs help could get it.
February 17th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Does anyone know what mental illness he had and what meds he was taking?
February 17th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Who is Brenda? I do not see that name on this board.
Must have me confused with someone else…I only use alias names when on the Internet. Do not even set up my emails with my real name or information anywhere! Use stuff like “Minnie Mouse” in Alice in Wonderland, USA and such.
February 17th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
If I had to guess it would be schizophrenia. Thats the most common illness where the patient tends to hate the meds. Not only that THEY feel normal with their feelings even though everyone around them is like WHOA. And people were saying he was acting erratic.
I had a cousin with Schizophrenia (she passed a couple of years ago of undiagnosed Lupus) and she was the opposite. She OVERTOOK her meds. She liked being zoned out.
February 17th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
And the post above mine is probably the WHOA factor his friends were talking about.
February 17th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Crap! I’m at my sister’s house helping with kids this weekend and using her PC. I totally forgot to sign out and resign in as me. Had found this site in her favorites around Christmas and thought it was really, good. I asked her and she said it was just a bunch of libs, but I do not see it that way.
So, I signed back in as me and will sign back in as her before I take off later today. Lord, what a dipshit I can be (according to her :>)
February 17th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Yeah Melissa,,,no kidding!! Except I do not feel crazy, just idiotic because NOW I cannot rememeber which email she used to log on with!
Suppose it doesn’t matter, I should just tell her and let her complain at me since she is older and likes to fuss at me since we were kids.
February 17th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
I thought Brenda’s kids were older.? At least the Brenda that didn’t care for all the “libs”.
February 17th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
I asked my boss about the fact that they fired that guy for “not doing the work” as opposed to the danger of him killing people. Of course, my boss is not connected with that company and he has never met the accused, but he is in a management/hire/fire position, so I asked his opinion. He said that the most likely reason they fired him for “not doing the work” is because they would be able to document all of that and not have to worry about any “wrongful termination” lawsuits.
When I worked at AOL, this guy came into the call center and started acting up, throwing chairs and whatnot, and was carrying a pistol in his duffel bag. They fired him for high call times and bad customer service reviews because if it ever came up in court, they could justify the termination.
I have often wondered what could be done about people that need the medication just not taking it. I have talked to some people with mental issues and for some of them, the meds make them so sick that “hearing voices” is preferable to feeling nauseated and exhausted all the time. They have gone through many trips to the doctors and tried many different medicines. Of course, they keep trying, not just “go off their meds”, but I know that at some point they have to be thinking that they just can’t take anymore.
Which policy is better? The good of the many over the good of the few, or the good of the individual over the good of the many? Both have serious drawbacks depending on which group you happen to be in when either policy is enforced.
Yeah, I know. My comment here really has no social value, but I just felt the need to weigh in on this one.
February 17th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
I dunno Lisa. I think your comment has major value. I would be more inclined to fire someone who has a violent temper than one who takes more time on a customer service call.
BTW – on the other end of a customer service call, the ones that take the time to walk you through it are more valuable to the customer, I had no idea they were less so to the employer.
February 17th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Melissa,
Oh yeah, in those call centers, numbers are the name of the game. When I was at AOL, we had 8 minutes and 30 seconds to completely solve the customer’s technical issue. If they had to call back and reference the same problem, it counted against the last tech that helped them, but if we spent longer on the calls,(of course, the management averaged them out, but . . . )we got dinged on our reviews and sometimes people ended up fired because they had a bad week or more.
I remember one instance where a customer called in to me (tech support) to complain about his bill. I had absolutely no access to billing information, which I explained to him, and I transferred him to billing. My manager got back a customer satisfaction survey from him complaining that “I” didn’t give him his money back. My manager understood there was nothing I could have done to give his money back, but it still counted against me in the review.
At the end of the calls, we were required to hawk some program or other (credit alert, travel programs, etc) and there was a thing that popped up on the screen that was connected to the caller’s phone number that was entered into the data base. If the popup window showed no available programs to pitch, we still got in trouble if we didn’t pitch SOMETHING. Not pitching a program was grounds for an immediate Job in Jeopardy writeup.
February 17th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23203455/
Same gun dealer with VA Tech and the IL killer.
NOW can we agree that some laws need changing. Apparently some of these sales were online.
Shaking my head in disbelief at people that think guns and ammo should be a right no matter what.
February 17th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
I really appreciate you post, Lisa. It is a dilemma. I understand about the “wrongful termination” issue, but is it truly strange that being violent won’t get you fired, but doctoring the records to mess with your job performance will. Crazy world, isn’t it?
I was taking a cholesterol medication that made me ill. I was tired, had muscle fatigue, and, overall, I really didn’t care if I had problems with cholesterol if I had to feel like that all the time — not to mention those were more that just side affects. The miracle of medicine is not always an easy answer.
February 17th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Glad I dont use AOL anymore. Actually who does anymore? lol
February 17th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Melissa,
Yeah, when they laid me off, I was a little stressed, but now I know it was the best thing that could have happened to me, lol.
February 17th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
You know re-reading this post makes me think of something very very important. Thousands of soldiers are coming home with PTSS. And they aren’t being treated. Our country is sending these kids out to war and not taking care of them when they come home.
This may not have anything to do with this particular case, but a recipe for danger which we will be reaping for years to come.
February 18th, 2008 at 6:02 am
Well, Melissa, we didn’t take very good care of our soldiers when they were in Iraq so it is not surprising we aren’t helping them when they finally get to rotate out and stay stateside. I think the affect has already impacted many families, but the incidents are so scattered and unpopular with the press that the public doesn’t realize the problem — that is, until an incident becomes a major newsmaker
February 18th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Troll Says:
February 17th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Crap! I’m at my sister’s house helping with kids this weekend and using her PC. I totally forgot to sign out and resign in as me. Had found this site in her favorites around Christmas and thought it was really, good. I asked her and she said it was just a bunch of libs, but I do not see it that way.
Looking back on the comments you said the first time you were in here was on January 31. hmmm
So, I signed back in as me and will sign back in as her before I take off later today. Lord, what a dipshit I can be (according to her :>)
February 18th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Melissa, your post about returning servicemen reminded me of Eric Hall, the marine with PTSS who is missing in Florida.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
There are a lot of them out there. There was a Dateline about it I believe. Tons of them are homeless and the military refuses care.
The ones that are serving are having a hard time as well, the suicide rate for soldiers is as high as its ever been, and if they TRY to commit suicide and don’t succeed, they get in trouble (trying to get out of duty or some such nonsense) and can be discharged with NO benefits, which of course means no health coverage.
I say, we can do a LOT better. In fact I am outraged that this is going on.
February 19th, 2008 at 7:58 am
I’ve heard about the suicide rate going up, but I didn’t know that they could be discharged with no benefits. That is ridiculous.
February 19th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Its not just ridiculous, its disgusting.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17362654
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6576505
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7947
The Fine Print
In the Army’s separations manual it’s called Regulation 635-200, Chapter 5-13: “Separation Because of Personality Disorder.” It’s an alluring choice for a cash-strapped military because enacting it is quick and cheap. The Department of Veterans Affairs doesn’t have to provide medical care to soldiers dismissed with personality disorder. That’s because under Chapter 5-13, personality disorder is a pre-existing condition. The VA is only required to treat wounds sustained during service.
Soldiers discharged under 5-13 can’t collect disability pay either. To receive those benefits, a soldier must be evaluated by a medical board, which must confirm that he is wounded and that his wounds stem from combat. The process takes several months, in contrast with a 5-13 discharge, which can be wrapped up in a few days.
If a soldier dismissed under 5-13 hasn’t served out his contract, he has to give back a slice of his re-enlistment bonus as well. That amount is often larger than the soldier’s final paycheck. As a result, on the day of their discharge, many injured vets learn that they owe the Army several thousand dollars.
One military official says doctors at his base are doing more than withholding this information from wounded soldiers; they’re actually telling them the opposite: that if they go along with a 5-13, they’ll get to keep their bonus and receive disability and medical benefits. The official, who demanded anonymity, handles discharge papers at a prominent Army facility. He says the soldiers he works with know they don’t have a personality disorder. “But the doctors are telling them, this will get you out quicker, and the VA will take care of you. To stay out of Iraq, a soldier will take that in a heartbeat. What they don’t realize is, those things are lies. The soldiers, they don’t read the fine print,” he says. “They don’t know to ask for a med board. They’re taking the word of the doctors. Then they sit down with me and find out what a 5-13 really means–they’re shocked.”
Russell Terry, founder of the Iraq War Veterans Organization (IWVO), says he’s watched this scenario play itself out many times. For more than a year, his veterans’ rights group has been receiving calls from distraught soldiers discharged under Chapter 5-13. Most, he says, say their military doctors pushed the personality disorder diagnosis, strained to prove that their problems existed before their service in Iraq and refused to acknowledge evidence of posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), traumatic brain injury and physical traumas, which would allow them to collect disability and medical benefits.
February 19th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
This scam is far worse than the Dominican marriages, if you ask me! How shameful!
February 20th, 2008 at 5:42 am
Hey all.
Having lived with someone for 17 years who was diagnosed with Bi-Polar disorder I can tell you how scary mental illness can be. It does need to be seen as a much more serious matter than it is often seen as.
BUT….I can’t speak for others, but my ex used his mental illness as an excuse to be downright mean. “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to hit you, my meds must be off”. Mental illness or not, there needs to be accountability for what people do to others. I’m not saying everyone is like this by any means and mental illness is a serious, legitimate illness. But when do we say that people just need to be held accountable for their actions instead of feeling bad for them?
Just my 2 cents.
February 20th, 2008 at 6:21 am
KDuba, we all have used some excuse to shirk a responsibility. It seems we are at a true crossroad where people with very serious mental conditions can function if they are medicated, but then we are leaving that entire responsibility in the hands of individuals that have mental issues. Are they always truly capable of making those very serious choices? Will they take their meds when they need them? Even when the meds make them feel odd, or ill, or put a strain on their finances. Depending in their condition, that strikes me as a very precarious situation. And being on meds does not mean they will all become sweet and gentle, but if they act out they sure have a great excuse for their behaviors — the meds or not.
February 20th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Yikes – KDuba. That’s rough. It is so hard to get them to stay on their meds.
February 20th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Excellent points, KDuba and CRose…food for thought!
February 21st, 2008 at 5:34 am
Compassrose, very good points. I have used excuses at times myself. And you’re so right, we’re leaving serious choices in the hands of the mentally ill. An I don’t think people become all sweet just because of their meds…a lot of the Bi-Polar meds are mood adjusters or something like that and not miracle pills.
It’s tough because it’s so sad that many people who suffer from mental illness just do not get the help they need. It’s like, let’s give ‘em pills and maybe they’ll go away. When do we really know that it’s mental illness and not just plain nastiness that’s at fault? I guess it’s like the toss of a coin and we can just hope we land on the lucky side.
I don’t know if any of the above came out the way I really wanted it to….lol.
And Terri, it is so hard to keep someone on their meds. They seem to feel so good and normal on them that they think they don’t need them.
February 21st, 2008 at 1:17 pm
From what I’ve seen they are asleep 20 hours per day while on the meds. No wonder they don’t want to take them.
February 21st, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Sleeping like that to me would point to someone who has depression and isnt taking meds. There may be a transitional period where the meds may make them sleepy, but your body adjusts to that.
February 21st, 2008 at 7:57 pm
That’s right Melissa. The drug I’m speaking of is Seroquel. I think a lot of patients have trouble actually getting to the point where their body adjusts. Or they slack off for a weekend so they won’t sleep through it and lose progress. A lot of these meds cause weight gain too, which makes a lot of people not want to take it. I wish there were some better options.
February 23rd, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Anyone else see a slight resemblence to Erik Harris?
February 28th, 2008 at 5:19 am
I can’t speak of all mental illness, just Bi-Polar Disorder. My understanding is that the meds make them feel so normal that they don’t see the need to take them. And they don’t want to hear that it’s the meds that are making them feel good.
Evey med my ex ever took, would at first make him sleep for days or weeks without hardly ever getting out of bed. Sadly, those were the times that were easiest for me cause I didn’t have to deal with him as much. That sounds horrible, I’m sure, but it’s the truth.
April 14th, 2008 at 3:29 am
i have several mental ilnesses, one of them is bi-polor with scycosis(which means i get
violent,hyper, and it means i am out of touch with reality,but only when i dont take my meds.)so i understaand what the guy is like and why he did it, but i believe he was out of touch with reality and paranoid about surviving. believe me u have to have this horrible illness to fully understand it.