Emily Sander: Nice Girl, Not a Porn Star
[CR Note: Behind every crime story, there is someone like Tiffany, our poster of the CR Letter of the 
Week. It's a good reminder that Emily Sanders, the murdered young woman from Kansas and so-called porn star, was a friend, a daughter, a student. Much more than the media labels that are affixed to her now. Read what Tiffany wrote on Crime Rant.]
I knew Emily. I loved Emily like a sister. I have spent many night uspset, ready to fight, and crying cause I looked at a national news site and saw my friend being called a porn star and as many people saying it was pretty much her fault what had happened to her. I will not waste me time going around an correcting everyone on the fact that Emily was more than a “porn star” in fact she was not even a porn star, she took some sexy photos many girls our age have taken, she never once had sex on video or for money or anything like that and to hear people speculate this is driving us insane!!! Imagine how heartbroken your grandparents would be if they had to hear these things about you after you were murdered at 19. So please just remember these pictures Emily took was just a small fraction of the girl we knew and loved. Before anymore hateful words are posted, just think how you would feel if these things were being posted about your daughter, granddaughter, mother, sister, or best friend. Please remember people are very deeply hurting over this and no matter what people think or have read about Emily, she DID NOT deserve this. Thank you.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Thank you for making this the letter of the week. And thank you Tiffany for reminding people of the person behind the headlines. My heart aches for all those who have not just had to deal with the tragic death of Emily, but the tragic treatment of it in the news as well.
God be with you all.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Not much I can add to what OutofTX said, I agree completely. Very tragic.
December 6th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Nobody deserves this Tiffany. Emily was beautiful and I am sorry her young life was caught short. I know she will be missed.
December 6th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Thank you for the letter Tiffany. No one deserves to be murdered like this. She was fortunate to have such a good friend as you.
December 6th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
Tiffany– we don’t usually do much cyber-hugging around here, but here’s one for you (((hug))).
So sorry for your loss and pain.
December 6th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
Tiffany, I am very sorry about your friend.
It is a bummer, though, that people don’t take into consideration their parents and grandparents when they get these pictures taken. Please don’t take offense.
December 6th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
Judy st.Louis– what 18 year old is taking their parents and grandparents into consideration when they’re doing most anything?
If you ask me, it would make them a little bit odd.
December 6th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
Tiffany, I am sorry for your pain, as well as the pain of Emily’s family. The ‘porn star’ headlines sickened me. It is heartbreaking that the media who reported on the horrific crime perpetrated on this young girl could not do so without sensationalizing it and attempting to ruin her reputation and good name.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:18 am
Tiffany, my dear, I am really sorry for your pain and loss and to me Emily is just a sweet kid who sadly died. (((hugs Tiffany))).
December 7th, 2007 at 5:43 am
The media and probably a good portion of the general public seize on the photography issue and blow it all out of proportion. It seems the photos were an adventuresome way of enhancing her immediate income and her desired career. Some provocative poses do not equate to performing sex acts for money. None of this had anything to do with her death and she appears to be a beautiful young woman who somehow ran into “Mr.Wrong” at a bar. So far there is no showing of whether she left that bar voluntarily or not or what happened in the motel room. Its unfortunate that she was killed much less killed by such a low-life creep.
December 7th, 2007 at 6:46 am
Wow, I can’t believe what I am reading. This is the real world folks. Why is everyone overlooking this “friend’s” lack of friendship?
Before I start, let me be crystal clear… before all the emotional rants start hitting my email:
**Emily was a victim. Whatever she was or was not purported to be does not make it right that she became a victim. And no matter what I say here, anyone who knows me and my past and my past vocation knows how hard I’ve fought for true victims… and the gigantic credibility I bring in the world of certain crimes and investigation…
That being said, the letter-writer inthis post does not get a free pass… she allegedly “loved Emily like a sister”… Right. Yet she let her 18-year-old “sister” go to bars and put her skin on the net… c’mon…c’mon…Are any of you gonna let your sister do that without stepping in?? Please. And if anyone says the letter writer “tried” but Emily refused to listen, then, what does that say??
…c’mon! What’s with e-hugs and circle-smirks for the letter writer? It ain’t enough to “write a letter” ex-post-facto. Why does no one see this?
Where was the friend and the all-important “friendly advice” when Emily was putting her “provocative pictures” on the Internet? Where was the friendly advice against such a practice? I mean, can anything good come of that? Can that EVER be a postive thing? I mean, say what you want, not the best decision in the world, is it? You want your kids doing that? My wife’s friends would not let her do that… c’mon!
Do any of you know how pornography starts? It starts with simple things, voluntary “pictures” and poses and victims allowing themselves to be out there and exposed, “experimenting”, being adventurous, being provocative… that’s when the professional vultures and the voyeurs step in and turn on the “pimpology”… talk to any “stripper” turned hooker, hooker turned porn star… it starts small… friends don’t even let you start… and don’t try to twist this and tell me I’m blaming the victim, cuz I ain’t… but if you put yourself in that world, you walk among monsters… and friends should step in before the time comes to write a letter!
… all of us are potential victims to scum bags… some of us, especially those who put provocative pictures up “for sale” expose outselves to the sleazier elements on earth, plain and simple…. so where was this “friend” when Emily did that? I dare anyone to tell me that it was not the friend’s place to give her advice.
Repeat, in blinking red neon: Not blaming the victim… this post is about everyone spreading love for the letter writer.
Next: Where was the “friend” when 18-year-old Emily went to a BAR. A BAR! What goes on in a bar? Social gathering place for good friends to knock back a few before going home and foing home work? C’mon folks, it’s a meat market. Why is her friend not talking about that? Where was the friend then? I mean, c’mon everyone. Why are we “rewarding” this friend with positive karma just because she wrote a letter? This friend doesn’t get a pass. It’s admirable to try to clear Emily’s name, but that’s like buying car insurance after you crash into a building… the friend would have been well-served to have written a heart-felt letter to her “sister” expressing concern and love and advice.
NEXT: I agree, the press are a bunch of pimps…
NEXT: TO FoolsGold: What are you talking about?! “Adventursome”? A way of “enhancing her immediate income”? “Somehow ran into ´Mr. Wrong´in a BAR.” What world do you live in?
Let’s review what you said: An 18-year-old girl met Mr. Wrong in a BAR. a BAR. a Bar. She’s 18. Why would you write that?
AND YOU SAID: Provocative Poses to earn extra cash? Did you review what you wrote? It’s a joke, right? What kind of pimp-talk is that? Porn acts or not, you just basically approved of 18-year-old girls posting their flesh on the Internet to earn some “quick income”. WTF?
Seriously… what you wrote is just a joke, right?
December 7th, 2007 at 6:57 am
It’s not my place to judge Emily for what she did/did not do.
It’s unbelievably out of order to play the blame game and assess damage,Christopher Pimental.The poor kid’s dead.Let the family grieve in peace.
December 7th, 2007 at 7:14 am
“And if anyone says the letter writer “tried” but Emily refused to listen, then, what does that say??”
It says that an eighteen year old college student, away from home and experiencing independence for the first time, was beginning to run wild.
OMG, stop the presses, because we all know THAT has never happened before.
Whatever Emily was doing or not doing, or whether her friends stepped in or didn’t step in is absolutely moot now. She is dead, and the people who loved her are grieving. All the recrimination in the world won’t bring her back, so what exactly is your objective, Christopher? To make the letter writer feel worse?
Did you live your life flawlessly when you were 18?
December 7th, 2007 at 7:19 am
annarocket:
Did you read…actually read what I wrote?
NOTE: The several areas where it says that my post is based on complaining about the letter writer and not the victim? READ.
Please don’t tell me you are so typically emotional that you were unable to read the words right in front of you…did you read?
I specifically stated that I am a VICTIM’S ADVOCATE…that the letter writer is where my comments are directed…PLEASE READ BEFORE COMMENTING…
the letter writer claims to be “like a sister”…
MY COMMENTS ARE DIRECTED AT HER…
read read read read read read read read read before COMMENTING READ.
December 7th, 2007 at 7:21 am
Chris, that’s pretty rough to blame her friends, who were probably doing the same thing as her, or something similar. Teens do NOT think the way adults do, they haven’t seen what you and I have seen, they haven’t lived long enough to be wise. They feel as though they’ll live forever. Unfortunately, Emily’s friends will all grow up much faster than most, and even though they’ll be a safer bunch, it will be because of living through the death of their friend.
Are you shocked that Emily’s friends wouldn’t tell her to stay out of a bar at 19? Really? Please tell me what you wrote is a joke, right? (touche’) My friends and I ALL had fake ID’s, we all encouraged each other to go out to bars. Again, you are fearless at that age, you can do anything and live to tell about it, so they think. I’m sure they all feel like shit now, knowing their friend went to a bar and this was the outcome, but don’t tell me you really believe her friends were supposed to warn her not to go??
I’m NOT saying it’s right for her friends and for Emily to pose nude on the net and to go to bars when they’re underage. I’m saying face reality, and think back to when you were 19.
Tiffany, I’m sorry for your loss. Be safe sweetie.
December 7th, 2007 at 7:35 am
Rae: Well, at least it appears you actually read first. Kudos for that and for picking up some subtleties between the lines…
And yes, I am not here to appease the letter writer. If she had simply claimed to have known Emily as an acquaintance or a friend “not like a sister” and if she had only said that she felt very badly and wanted to state that Emily was not what she was being made out to be, I would have been much more sympathetic.
However, she claims to be “like a sister” and her inactions do not back up that statement…
And do you realize that you just said that Emily “was running wild”? Careful, the emotional ranters around here will think I put you up to that.
My point about saying that was that if the “friend” had tried to stop her and she said that Emily was not “running wild”…yet if Emily refused to take a friend’s advice, well, then, maybe she did not choose to see Emily’s flaws and where she could have helped. Look, I know about victims. I’ve SAVED several. But it is a simple fact that when victims “run wild” it is often a friend or a relative or someone who cares about them that can actually drop a word or a action that actually MEANS SOMETHING before a victim is, well, victimized. It’s not good enough to write a letter after a young, beautiful girl is dead.
I agree with you… a lot of us have done it… no one is perfect… , which is why I stated that I don’t blame the victim… something that annarocket obviously didn’t read… and furthermore, I am a former International investigator and I know what happens to victims who expose themselves to the creeps of the world… and I know how bad people can be to innocent victims… many victims would have been well served to have a real “friend” intervene…
I repeat…no good can come out of posting pictures on the internet… I don’t care what anyone says… there are too many bad people out there…true friends, true “sisters” would intervene… hence, no pass for the letter writer…sorry…
if she feels bad, she should… she might have been able to help beforehand.
Thank you for your courteous response to the post.
And to your question: No, I did not live flawlessly at 18. Thank goodness I had good people around me to point it out before I got myself injured or killed. That’s my point in this post.
December 7th, 2007 at 7:41 am
Hi, Kim Possible: No, I am not shocked at all and your points are valid and correct. I don’t blame the friends for her death. I blame the letter writer for writing a letter that claims she loved her like a sister. No she didn’t. I disagree with it. Help comes before, not after. Maybe I am being rough, but a letter does not take place of what she could have and should have done beforehand. If she loved her like a sister, she could have helped. I will not soften my stance against that. I’ve seen too many victims… too many times “friends” “were there for them” only after the fact… I don’t buy the “loved her like a sister statement”. Sorry.
Sadly, when I was 19, I was in College. I don’t drink, smoke or womanize. So, my perspective is different. I was an investigator, pragmatic and cold… We can use the excuse that at 19 we were all wild… but that does not make it right… it can not be used as an acceptable excuse… cuz if the 19-year old who gets into a bar fight and kills someone uses it as an excuse, he still goes down for manslaughter. It is not acceptable to use “sewing your wild oats” as an excuse. Sorry.
And, it goes without saying that her friends feel the loss. My issue is with the letter be written as if she were some “sisterly” friend.
Nice response. Thanks.
December 7th, 2007 at 7:47 am
ALSO: Instead of falling into my tectual and emotional traps, WHY IS NOONE ABSOLUTELY DESTROYING WHAT FOOLSGOLD SAID?
December 7th, 2007 at 7:52 am
MAKE THAT TEXTUAL
December 7th, 2007 at 7:58 am
See Chris, I don’t know where you’re coming from because you’ve led a very different life than most. You’ve seen things that many of us haven’t, and I can see why you’re callous towards the letter writer. I understand your thought process about Tiffany’s “loving her like a sister”, but not acting like one and giving her proper advice. As much as I may agree with you as a 39 year old woman, I don’t agree with the rough stance for a 19 year old girl who just lost her friend.
Who are we to say Tiffany didn’t give Emily any advice? She doesn’t say she didn’t. And if she did, kudos to her for not coming on here and saying, “I told her not to do it!”, and painting an even uglier picture than has already been painted of Emily.
I always say that it’s unfortunate more people aren’t aware of the crime out there. My friends and family are so naive, and when I talk about pedophiles and warning my friends and family of the crimes that exist in today’s world, they close their mind to it. Too many people choose to live in a rosy world, and that’s just the way it is.
So, I do have sympathy for Tiffany, and although I do agree with you that her friends should have stopped her, I’m sure they were living in their wonderful rosy college world where all was well, and never could have imagined something like this would happen to them.
Nice response to you also…
December 7th, 2007 at 8:01 am
I read it.I still think it was lame.
December 7th, 2007 at 8:05 am
So Chris, I tend not to address things on here that I know will get me cyber-maimed (I think I just came up with a new word).
I agree with you to the fullest extent, that nude pictures lead to much more. Look at serial rapists, almost all started out looking at nude pics as children, and when that wasn’t enough, it just keeps progressing to porn, hard-core porn, experimental activities, and then rape, and sometimes murder. As a member of Women Against Pornography for many years now, I completely and utterly agree with you. I also know that this argument become a flaming war almost always, so I take the low road and run away from it.
Emily’s pics may have never turned into anything else, but from what I’ve seen in my life, they very well could have turned into more. I watched a friend go from stripping to make a few extra bucks, to having her kids taken away from her because she’s now a crack whore and can be found in uptown Charlotte most times giving sexual favors in return for crack. Did I tell her not to strip? Yep, absolutely, but again, my arguments fell on deaf ears.
December 7th, 2007 at 8:06 am
I wish people [Pimento Chris] would quit somking crack before they post here. Your post[s] are lame, judgmental and quite immature.
December 7th, 2007 at 8:06 am
“…if she feels bad, she should… she might have been able to help beforehand.”
Fair enough. But, how can you be so sure she didn’t try? These girls are 18. Emily was beginning to run wild, and probably headstrong-yet you seem so positive that she wouldn’t have applied brakes to her behavior in the coming months.
We’re talking a fairly compressed amount of time here…college started in September, and the girls were in their first year-both of them busy and preoccupied with events, classes, etc. Well, September is less than 4 months ago.
A lot of teenagers go off to college and they lose control of their behavior for a time. A lot of changes, independence, responsibilities, no longer Mom and Dad to answer to, and immaturity all combine to make for some reckless behavior. But, as well, a great many of those same teenagers get control and settle down, after the newness of the change in lifestyle has worn off. I’m not excusing them, but it does happen. It happens quite a lot. You are suggesting, in addition to adjusting to the changes in her own life, “Tiffany” should have been vigilante in keeping some control in Emily’s as well.
Really, I’m not getting the point of your posts. You are picking apart this girl’s letter, and her friendship with the victim as if you want her and everyone else to agree that you are right.
Okay, you are right.
So, now, for “Tiffany”, in realizing that you are right, there is even more guilt.
What have you accomplished?
December 7th, 2007 at 8:08 am
KIMPOSSIBLE: Kudos for a smart, well-stated, fair and thoughtful response. We understand each other a little better in a short time, and I enjoy that… and I certainly respect you being able to take a step back and explain your position as opposed to attacking mine with emotional blatherings (others should take that as a blatant cheap shot).
Your points are valid and I can gladly accept them, I really can, even though we differ.
It is such a fight to get people to see the real world. Pedophiles exist. Criminals exist. I’ve traveled over the world, and while still only 40, I’ve seen so much…so much…
People are naive and it is sad. I will grant this. I’ll bet anything that Emily, though being portrayed as worldly, was “lost and naive”…
RESPECT TO YOU.
Chris
December 7th, 2007 at 8:09 am
P.S. I’m not picking apart FoolsGold inane statement, Chris, because you already said generally the same thing I would have said.
December 7th, 2007 at 8:30 am
RAE: First, I appreciate your willingness to express flexibility. Respect and kudos for that.
In answer to your question: What have I accomplished? Well, you said it yourself.
1. If we can accept that she might have (and we certainly do not know the extent of that, do we?) had a chance to intervene or really try, then she needs to learn from this tragic event and use it should a similar stuation present itself in the future. I don’t feel only e-hugs and emotional expression are enough to accomplish that, especially considering her words are contrary to her actions…she needs to be in the real world… realize that what she is saying is not what she did… it’s about credibility, teaching it at a young age so that she can teach her kids and others around her the value of being realistic, logical and credible. (Anyone who stands by and watches a train wreck and then suffers because of it needs to make sure the next time they see the train wreck coming they are prepared to act).
2. Maybe the textual slap or “roughness” that I give might shake some sense into her. To the contrary, in life, I am very non-violent, but still pragmatic… I try to teach my kids to think before something happens… I don’t teach through fear or violence, but through THINKING, common sense and through self realization… let them know about the badness out there, so much of which I have seen so that they can evaluate it and, hoe against hope, avoid it…it’s about decision making and responsibility I teach… so they don’t have to regret afterwards… can’t make good decisions if you are not living in the real world…Tiffany’s letter show she might not have had a real world view of her “friendship”…
am I always successful?…hell no…
3. Now, Tiffany needs to step into the real world and learn from this, recognize it the next time she sees it happening. What is so bad about teaching a 19-year-old that?
4. And, quite importantly, if she is doing the same things as her “sisterly friend” she should stop or at least become “aware” of what she’s into.
5. If she sees that any of her other friends are meandering into that bad world, she needs to act or try to advise them… she needs to be realistic…
6. If anyone out there is reading this, well, maybe they’ll see that it is never good enough to just watch a friend’s demise…
Finally, you are right…her letter is that of a 19-year-old kid… but, if we teach her now that she indeed was not “a sister” then maybe, just maybe, she’ll turn out to be in the future… if she looks at HER mistakes, the gloriousness of life is that she can get beyond them and get better…
Cold and pragmatic yes… do I feel for her… sure… is she feeling a loss? No doubt… but, my simple, cave-man opinion is that e-hugs alone ain’t gonna give her real perspective.
Finally, look at this posting session as an example. Most of us started miles apart…but slowly we’ve come to certain degrees of understanding, communication and flexibility… my view is a different view… Tiffany might, just might benefit from them as well…
Plus, no one even took the time to ask me if I cared about her…they just attacked… which is fine, I don’t mind…
AND, I AM ASSUMING THAT NO ONE IS DESTROYING FOOLSGOLD’S COMMENTS BECAUSE THEY ARE VIEWED AS TRITE AND MEANINGLESS. KUDOS FOR THAT.
December 7th, 2007 at 8:31 am
Christopher P. –You’re assuming this friend (Tiffany) knew all that Emily was doing, right?
And after this assumption, you’re assuming that this friend had control to stop or change Emily’s course?
Or that Tiffany had the ability to see danger that Emily couldn’t see?
Maybe you have a lot of experience, but one thing you don’t have–you’ve never been an 18 year old girl.
I stand behind my “e-hug”.
December 7th, 2007 at 8:41 am
Sophie, you intellectual goddess… do you realize that you stated that MY posts were “immature and lame”. God, you are hysterical.
The beauty of the written word, dear Sophie, little Sophie, is that the true person comes through the text. Take you, for example. You do not know me. You do not know who I am. What I’ve done. What I’ve accomplished in life. Yet, you’ve chosen, in all your astounding maturity, brilliance and wisdom, to state that “I should stop smoking crack.” And then you back that up by telling me that I am “immature”. Hardy har har har. I love it. Hysterical.
I swear, Miss Sophie, from this point forward, in all my “lame” posts, I sholy does promise to mimic your mature approach to intellectual textual interplay that goes on here.
Smoking crack. I love it. Thanks for the chuckle, Sophie. You made my day. E-hugs. Chris
December 7th, 2007 at 8:44 am
ChristopherP says:
“…I’ll bet anything that Emily, though being portrayed as worldly, was “lost and naive”…”
Most of us knew this immediately upon reading the story. Maybe these stories are more difficult for some people to grasp–people who do know all of the dangers out there (like you ChristopherP.).
It actually never occurred to me that she was “worldy”.
Worldy-if we’re using that word to portray one having some sense of sophistication about evil and danger- is generally not present in most 18 year old girls.
December 7th, 2007 at 8:47 am
“but, my simple, cave-man opinion is that e-hugs alone ain’t gonna give her real perspective.”
You’re right. I’m pretty sure, though, that the murder of her friend was a big step in the direction of ‘real perspective’, and the real world.
All this girl wants is for people to stop calling her friend a ‘porn star’, and realize that there was more to her (Emily’s) life than just that. That was the point of her letter. A point, in fact, you haven’t addressed while providing her with perspective.
And I didn’t attack you. I simply refuse to judge this young woman, as you have done, based on one sentence. I don’t know what the dynamics were between her and Emily-and neither do you. I’m going to, since we are assuming things today, assume that she just learned a harsher lesson in reality than you could ever teach her on an Internet blog.
December 7th, 2007 at 8:49 am
A. I am not assuming anything. Re-read, please. No assumptions at all. Just points of view. If it came off that way, I stand corrected. No assumptions.
And, I stand behind your e-hug too. Nothing wrong with an e-hug for the fact that Tiffany is feeling a loss. But, and this is a big but, she was not and did not act as a “sister” and she needs to stop fooling herself and everyone else into believing that. I do not give her a pass on that.
And no, I have never been an 18-year-old girl, but what does that have to do with my point? The point I was trying to make?….so because she was an 18-year old girl that gives her blanket permission to be irresponsible or unrealistic or have an incorrect value structure or perspective?
My experience has taught me that it is the UNREALISTIC people who COULD have stepped in to assist often USE ANY AND ALL EXCUSES to appease their guilt about why they did not… and allowing that to be “acceptable” creates adults of the same culture.
Kudos for having the backbone to respond and stand by your beliefs. We differ, plain and simple.
December 7th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Rae:
All points valid and worthy.
Let’s hope it is a step in the right direction.
Yes, I agree, the girl wants her friend to stop being called a porn star.
And the “judging” point you made is also very well received by moi. Nicely stated. Yet, WITH all of the folks around here passing along their best wishes to her, they are, in fact, judging her… judging that what she says is real and valid (not saying that they are right and wrong to do it)… it is, however, a judgment none-the-less, all-be-it a positive one…
A: As a society WE NEED TO TEACH 18-YEAR-OLD GIRLS ABOUT BEING WORLDLY… and not simply expect that they are not… AND MY WORD USE OF “WORLDY” MIGHT HAVE BEEN A WRONG CHOICE OF EXPRESSION thank you for pointing it out…to clarify…I MEANT THAT SHE WAS BEING PORTRAYED AS A PORN STAR, WHICH IMPLIES WORLDY… i should have specified that the evil talking heads are portraying her as “worldly” and she is lost and naive and that should be remembered…which goes right back to my original post…
December 7th, 2007 at 8:57 am
CP says:
“And no, I have never been an 18-year-old girl, but what does that have to do with my point? The point I was trying to make?”
Because, this thread started with a letter from a young girl who is feeling pain, sorrow, loss and confusion. You can kick while she’s down and teach her a lesson (I know you don’t see yourself as “kicking”, but to a young girl in pain, it just might feel like that), or you can offer her your regret, and maybe offer to get back to her later on the all of her various failings…
December 7th, 2007 at 8:58 am
“But, and this is a big but, she was not and did not act as a “sister””
And, once again, how do you know that? Were you ever a witness to their relationship?
“to be irresponsible or unrealistic or have an incorrect value structure or perspective?”
And how do you know that this applies to Tiffany?
“My experience has taught me that it is the UNREALISTIC people who COULD have stepped in to assist often USE ANY AND ALL EXCUSES to appease their guilt about why they did not”
Where did Tiffany offer such excuses in her letter?
You say you are not assuming anything, but you are making these judgments about a girl you don’t know and have never met based on one sentence in a letter she wrote. If you aren’t assuming that your opinions are true about her, then what are you doing?
December 7th, 2007 at 9:01 am
Well, Rae, maybe I’m assuming.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:03 am
“they are, in fact, judging her…judging that what she says is real and valid”
And what she said was that there was more to her friend’s life than being a “porn star”, and that it is upsetting to her family. Those, actually, are valid points.
So, which is it? We are judging HER, or we are judging the validity of what she said? It is not the same thing.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:06 am
I think a little bit of both, but not really a point I feel valid enough to delve into… I made my points, I respect yours and arguing will only inflame things more.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:08 am
“Well, Rae, maybe I’m assuming.”
Maybe? Try yeah, you are.
I would say that Tiffany doesn’t need advice based on guesswork-she would do better with advice based on reality.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:11 am
Chris you stepped in it. 19 year olds DO go to bars, and you nor anyone else knows what she was doing in that hotel room.
Her pictures have nothing to do with this case, and until you can prove otherwise it would be wise to zip it if you are going to be judgmental.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:17 am
ChrisP–go up one thread and beat up on someone who truly deserves it.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:23 am
Oh Rae, I’m simply too tired to keep arguing… it was amusing for a while…
If it makes you feel better to tell me what I am or am not doing, saying or feeling, so be it. I don’t live and die with the need to defend myself, to be right or wrong…I simply believe what I believe, like ti or not…
It’s fun to stoke the coals of emotion here, but it gets old real fast… take note that we’ve strayed so far from our original points that it’s like walking in mud… it’s a clash of attrition and at this point and simply not worth my time or energy to keep arguing over and over and over.
Obviously, to you, it is. So, I promise, I’ll be back another day to drop gas on the fire.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:25 am
Melissa:
Chris you stepped in it. (I don’t get the cliché…stepped in what?)
19 year olds DO go to bars, (and… that makes it right?) and you nor anyone else knows what she was doing in that hotel room (I never said I did…in fact, I never said anything about Emily…in fact…(boooooring, I’m repeating myself) I pointedly stated that I am not even talking about her inthis post…I’m talking about the letter writer….
Her pictures have nothing to do with this case, and until you can prove otherwise it would be wise to zip it if you are going to be judgmental.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:26 am
“arguing will only inflame things more.”
I was calmly debating. You must be the one heatedly arguing.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:35 am
“take note that we’ve strayed so far from our original points that it’s like walking in mud”
No, I haven’t. My original point, and I’ve stuck to it, was that you can’t teach Tiffany anything with your words here, Chris. You don’t know her. You don’t know the dynamics of her relationship with Emily. The only thing you might be accomplishing here is to cause her further pain and guilt.
Kudos to you for that.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:48 am
RAE: My final word: If she feels further pain or guilt, again, so be it.
If she does, I welcome her to comment here and defend herself and I will face her head on and get her point of view too. I, in fact both welcome and relish it.
E-hugs and cuddles have a purpose, Ipve said that… They feel good and all that, but in the real world, it’s a whole different ball game… my sister HAS come to my rescue before…that what “sibling love is”… it has no age… and no excuses… you all want to offer hugs, cuddles and excuses, you rchoice and God Bless America, etc., etc…. I have my right to offer textual ass-kicking too.
Rock on Rae… be back to drop more bombs soon…
Wish Sophie wold have responded… that comment was like cat-nip for me…
Have a great weekend all.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:56 am
Quoting C.P.:
“If she does, I welcome her to comment here and defend herself and I will face her head on and get her point of view too. I, in fact both welcome and relish it.”
Omg Chris. I’d hate to see what you’re like at a funeral for someone who died of coronary heart disease or lung cancer…
December 7th, 2007 at 10:12 am
“My final word: If she feels further pain or guilt, again, so be it.”
That’s your final word? You go on for two more paragraphs.
I’m beginning to think you are concerned less with the actual subject at hand and more with just reading your own words.
Your ego definitely survived the train wreck.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:15 am
He just admitted he is coming here to troll. Why bother with him in the first place?
December 7th, 2007 at 10:21 am
A- Quite honestly, that crosses the line.
Don’t assume you know me. You have not earned the right to make a personal comment like that.
If you knew anything about me, if knew what I used to do for a living, how I took care of people, protected people, am an advocate for the abused, the innocent, the victims…how I PROTECTED and TOOK care of WEAKER people… to the point where I was in grave danger in doing so… you would see how shallow and inappropriate your comment was…so no, A, you have not earned the right to attack me personally.
I have seen, located, followed, investigated, interrogated and otherwise surveilled some of the most dishonorable, disgusting, vile and evil people… all to protect others… looked evil in the eye, stared down killers and guns and threats, all to help or save others.
So what I don’t buy into Tiffany’s letter. That makes me a cold-hearted bastard who mocks the inferm? How do you make that connection?
For me to welcome Tiffany to offer her point of view and to defend herself as opposed to doing it in a forum is the mark of a person willing to listen and teach… a man willing to let the source defend herself…
Here are some points of fact for you to consider:
1. My grandmother died of lung cancer in 1993. It was agonizing and painful and horrible and at the end, she couldn’t even get up to take a shit… and I still dream about her being alive.
2. I have lung problems myself and check my lungs twice per year… I am a non-smoker and I have lived with the fear of wondering if it was cancer…
Don’t let yourself fall into the trap of judging a person who is slinging tit-for-tat comments on an open forum for the sake of debate and entertainment…
An invitation to Tiffany to express herself and defend herself to me is the mark of a man who is willing to LISTEN.
While this tit-for-tat session is amusing and I am overly willing to take a contrary view for kicks and giggles and spice it up, personal attacks and crude attempts such as yours cross the line and illuminate your true character.
I invite you, wholeheartedly, to put your brain where your words are… learn about me… not the crime fiction I spew… learn about the person behind the words… the man who has seen what I’ve seen…
Then come back here and make any personal attacks you feel are warranted.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:25 am
Melissa…Kudos, you figured it out… gas, fire, fun… although “trolling” is certainly inaccurate… what’s up with all the clichés?
December 7th, 2007 at 10:26 am
ok, ok, sorry chrisP.
you say: “so no, A, you have not earned the right to attack me personally.”
well..I guess I don’t see you as having “earned the right” to attack Tiffany.
Geez–the male-ego is a mine field.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:27 am
btw- I obviously pushed a hot-button of personal issues for you. Maybe you can imagine that you have done the same for many of us here.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:28 am
“I am overly willing to take a contrary view for kicks and giggles and spice it up”
Definition of trolling.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:30 am
Remember, though, I attack Tiffany in regards ONLY to what she put out there in the public forum, my comments based on the letter and her as she relates to the letter, or at least I tried… I have not attacked her personally outside the realm of the letter… but, I get your point…
December 7th, 2007 at 10:32 am
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an on-line community such as an on-line discussion forum or group with the singular intention of baiting users into an argumentative response.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:36 am
No you made comments about girls who go to bars etc. Bars ARE in fact a place where people go to mellow out and hang after a day of work. They arent all meat markets. Perhaps you are thinking of a nightclub.
Since you claim to have limited knowledge of bars, we should let that slide?
And yes at 19 I DO think its alright. We are sending 17 and 18 year old kids to war and they cant go to bars? Its complete bullshit.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:43 am
“Troll (Internet), a person who is deliberately inflammatory on the Internet in order to provoke a vehement response from other users…”
While my original post was certainly not an intent to troll (it appears to have admittedly turned into it), the post actually WARNED AGAINST becoming “inflamed” and HINTED at as much, yet no one seemed to notice…
Well, in fairness, one of the earlier responders noticed and contacted me privately, checked out my “creds” and as such, we engaged in quite a nice and open conversation about the matter at hand… very pleasant…
Nicely done, Melissa. Nicely done. Go back and read how many times I mentioned “don’t fall into the trap”, don’t respond such and such a way, yet, so many did… so many did…
No one bothered to ask what I really felt…they simply attacked… right away… one would say they became “inflamed”…
The jig is up…
It is highly possible that I will have many true and honest views that are quite the contrary to others’ here. I welcome any and all calm, logical, well-thought out debates… I also welcome any and all to ignore whatever I say…
Peace to all… Train Wreck out…
Peace to all…
December 7th, 2007 at 10:44 am
“My grandmother died of lung cancer in 1993. It was agonizing and painful and horrible and at the end, she couldn’t even get up to take a shit… and I still dream about her being alive.”
And if some stranger said to you that you didn’t love your grandmother the way a grandson would because you didn’t manage to get her to quit breathing in whatever toxins led to the cancer, then, by your reasoning here, they would be right.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Melissa-
You stated: No you made comments about girls who go to bars etc. Bars ARE in fact a place where people go to mellow out and hang after a day of work. They arent all meat markets. Perhaps you are thinking of a nightclub. (Maybe, as I said, I really don’t know)
Since you claim to have limited knowledge of bars, we should let that slide? (Your choice, not mine…)
And yes at 19 I DO think its alright. We are sending 17 and 18 year old kids to war and they cant go to bars? Its complete bullshit. (I hate the fact that kids go to war…or that anyone does… the bar ting, drinking in bars at 19, we differ on that thought…)
Melissa, I do not disagree, for the most part. All “trolling” aside.
And I do have very limited knowledge about bars and clubs and all that… just wasn’t my thing… the point I want to make is this… especially these days, women especailly need to know.. not be naive… if a friend sees another friend, especially a girl, doing something dangerous…and I do consider putting provocative pictures on the internet as “dangerous”, they should do everything possible to “enlighten” that person. In defense of Tiffany, she might have tried this… she might not have… I certainly do not know…
December 7th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Rae: let it die. My argument is based on a letter and a girl who claims to have had “sisterly” love and access to the victim, a relationship that would constitute a certain degree of credibility. I have/had neither the knowledge, possibility or studies to predict or protect my grandmother against lung cancer… respectfully, your comparison is ridiculous…
That being said, I preached to my grandmother TO NO END that she should quit smoking… hid her cigarettes… that was MY responsibility and I did it, every day, day in and day out…
I did my part… beforehand…
December 7th, 2007 at 11:01 am
Chris–you’re a nice guy (obviously), and I like you. And, just for the sake of adding validity to this conversation, I watched someone very close to me die of cancer too.
I’m looking at this comment:
“That being said, I preached to my grandmother TO NO END that she should quit smoking… hid her cigarettes… that was MY responsibility and I did it, every day, day in and day out…”
I appreciate the fact that you felt like this was your responsibility–but it really wasn’t. You cannot control what someone else is doing.
Maybe I see a root issue here??
December 7th, 2007 at 11:06 am
Respectfully, I addressed only what you put out on a public forum. Respectfully, I know as little of your relationship with your grandmother as you know of Tiffany’s relationship with Emily.
That being said, perhaps Tiffany fulfilled her responsibility to Emily, as well. You have no way of knowing.
Speaking of letting it die, weren’t you leaving?
December 7th, 2007 at 11:06 am
OK… need to go be productive now… have a safe weekend all… anyone feel free to bitch at me on my MySpace account or to my email…
December 7th, 2007 at 11:08 am
Awww– Just when we were getting somewhere…
December 7th, 2007 at 11:11 am
A: I was about to bail (Rae pointed out that I had to go…) but you came in and hit me with a home run. Core issues indeed…
Read my early works, the prose, in particular… “See”, by Christopher Pimental …should be available if you google it that way… it’s from my early days, probably unedited, but it says a lot…
RESPECT TO YOU AFTER ALL
…and Thank you. That was nice.
December 7th, 2007 at 11:25 am
“(Rae pointed out that I had to go…) ”
Proof positive you are a writer. YOU said you were leaving like six times-yet, somehow, it ends up that I TOLD you to go.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
ChrisP– I will look it up and read…
and Rae–lol, love your wit, as always.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Tiffany-
I am sorry about the loss of your friend. What a terrible thing for you and the family to have to go through. But in the end, it really don’t matter what people think. It’s how you feel in your heart about Emily. The things you’ve both shared together are yours, and NOBODY can take that away from you.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
A. Good point about the control issue. I think you touched on something.
It was not her friends’ responsibility to stop her.
And this may upset some people, but I don’t see anything wrong with posing for sexy pictures. If people are uncomfortable with it, they don’t have to look. There are other things to look at on the internet… lots of cute puppies and kittens, etc.
I see no reason to try to make Emily’s friend feel guilty. The point of her letter (I think) was to convey that she was not a porn star and that she was a good person.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Chris-
I feel there is something much more deeper inside that bothers you, not the “Lack of Friendship” that you claim Tiffany had.
If that was the case, ALL of us in the world would be held accountable for our friends actions and choices, and that is just not realistic. (IMO)
Peace
December 7th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
“a girl who claims to have had “sisterly” love and access to the victim”
You know, this is really a flaw in your reasoning, Chris.
Tiffany never claimed to have sisterly access to the victim.
She never used the term “access” (that was you) and what she said was that SHE loved Emily like a sister, which, logically, means that she allowed Emily access to HERSELF. She didn’t say and it doesn’t mean that Emily returned the love in equal measure, or that Emily allowed Tiffany the same access.
You can only have as much access to another person as they are willing to allow you.
You formed a conclusion that has no basis in the information available. As well as putting words in Tiffany’s mouth.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
I almost never post here, but does everyone realize the posters here have allowed a bible-thumping troll to monopolize and twist the entire thread to his purposes I am sure some already realize this and the best way to handle a troll is to completely ignore them. Which I will now proceed to do.
December 7th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Mike in Ok., I don’t recall the Bible being mentioned at all. Did I miss it??
December 8th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Mike: yes, it does seem a thread that should have gone elsewhere has turned into the “let’s see how many different ways Christopher Pimental can justify being a jackass. Oh, and yes Chris, I called you a jackass. Because your post -whether right, wrong or whatever – was an inappropriate and not really any less cruel than what the media did to that girl’s memory. You passed judgement where you know nothing more than what that same media posted.
In fact, you remind me of my father, who loves to tell my older brother and I whenever he believes we’ve done something stupid because “If I don’t who will?” To which I finally said. “Did it ever occur to you that we KNOW when we’ve made a mistake and you beating us over the head with it doesn’t help a DAMN BIT?”
Think about that Chris. And please, don’t respond to me here I won’t bother to answer or even read it – it will only be more of the same anyway.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:48 am
[...] Last week Crime Rant published a letter from one of Sander’s friends, Tiffany. The poster’s sentiments are right on topic here. Emily was more than a “porn star” in fact she was not even a porn star, she took some sexy photos many girls our age have taken, she never once had sex on video or for money or anything like that and to hear people speculate this is driving us insane!!! So please just remember these pictures Emily took was just a small fraction of the girl we knew and loved. [...]
December 10th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
Wow – this entire commentary was difficult to read starting with the Chris post – my sister happens to be my best friend and as I’ve already mentioned my Sister – however, I cannot control her and make her life choices for her – I tried and tried when we were teen’s to preach birth control – my friendship and sisterly love produced a now 19 y.o. niece for me – she is still a wonderful person, a wonderful mother and fortunately not a victim like this young lady was – this is the first post I’ve read where I really have to say —- Chris is an ASS and that’s the nicest thing I can say
December 31st, 2008 at 11:09 am
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